Hi.
Sorry about my much-longer-than-expected absence. I've been (and continue to be) busy and distracted and a little bit writers blocked. There probably won't be much here until Januaryish.
I do have things to say, but I'm having trouble getting them down in writing. This happens to me sometimes.
In the mean time, here's another gem from xkcd:
[+/-] Happy Holidays |
[+/-] Stuff |
I'm sorry for the lack of posts recently. I'm midway through my end-of-term essay writing frenzy. By this time next week I will be free.
Until then, here's some stuff:
Apparently this blog reads at an undergrad level.
I'm more than a little skeptical. Not sure what the creator was reading in college, but it clearly wasn't Kierkegaard.
I'd like to think that the average high schooler could make sense of my writing, but I guess I do use big words sometimes.
Here's a shocker: apparently this blog is worthy of a NC-17 rating. Why? Primarily my liberal use of the words "pain" and "hell". Riiiight.
Good thing the kiddies can't read it anyways.
And have you ever wondered where I fit in the wide world of Christian theology? Wonder no more!
What's your theological worldview?
You scored as a Emergent/Postmodern
You are Emergent/Postmodern in your theology. You feel alienated from older forms of church, you don't think they connect to modern culture very well. No one knows the whole truth about God, and we have much to learn from each other, and so learning takes place in dialogue. Evangelism should take place in relationships rather than through crusades and altar-calls. People are interested in spirituality and want to ask questions, so the church should help them to do this.
Emergent/Postmodern
89%
Modern Liberal
64%
Classical Liberal
61%
Neo orthodox
54%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan
43%
Roman Catholic
32%
Charismatic/Pentecostal
25%
Reformed Evangelical
14%
Fundamentalist
0%
That sounds about right. I confess I don't know much about Neo Orthodoxy, Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyanism, or the differences between Modern and Classical Liberalism. (Anyone care to enlighten me?) But I do like what I've heard about the Emergent church (primarily via Brian McLaren), and the blurb at the top sounds pretty good to me.
Want to see your theology expressed as a bar graph? Of course you do! Take the quiz here.
And a few links for good measure:
Here's the most interesting thing I've seen this week (via slacktivist).
Jim at Straight, Not Narrow weighs in on the "War on Christmas".
My current favorite web comic is xkcd.

9 comments:
By the way, "hi". I'll try to email you sometime...
"You scored as a Fundamentalist
You are a fundamentalist. You take the Bible as the foundation of your faith and read it very literally, and it shapes your worldview. Non-fundamentalist Christians have watered-down the Gospel in your view, and academic study of the Bible stops us from 'taking God at his word.' Science is opposed to faith, as it contradicts basic biblical truths.
Fundamentalist
100%
Reformed Evangelical
96%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan
82%
Neo orthodox
71%
Emergent/Postmodern
64%
Classical Liberal
61%
Charismatic/Pentecostal
50%
Modern Liberal
29%
Roman Catholic
29%"
G_d have mercy.... 64% emergent postmodern. Well, I'm a bad one to ask agree / disagree questions since I usually find something to agree with in most assertions, and tend to look at the backside of issues (..on the other hand...) so maybe I'd skewed the result.
One discrepancy I see is that I by no means think "Science is opposed to faith, as it contradicts basic biblical truths." although this may be true for many Scientists, Science itself ought eventually (and dose more often than not) get on quite well with the Bible, it's just that Science has a long way to go to understanding things, really..
Maranatha
Anonymous: well well, I've always suspected you were two-thirds Emergent. Of course, quizzes like this are prone to skewed results, and shouldn't be taken too seriously.
I understand your objection to the science/faith comment. I imagine most people from most Christian sub-groups think the Bible and science get along alright - it's just a question of whose science and which reading of the Bible.
By the way, I'd appreciate it if you'd use a screen name here, since you're a semi-regular commenter. I generally don't have trouble identifying you, but I prefer to talk to people who have some semblance of an identity. It's easy - just select "Other" below before publishing. Thanks.
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/02/the_transformat_4.html
"D" (otherwise known as Dr.Dee)
I didn't read the article very closely, but I think the objection of the author, whomever he is (I don't think it's Swindoll), is basically that the Emergent Church tends to be not very interested in objective truth, and takes too friendly/inclusive an attitude to other religions.
The Emergent Church is a sort of a loose, decentralized movement, and hence difficult to pin down with any precision, but I think the author's understanding of their current position (if not necessarily their direction) is reasonably accurate.
I don't see the Emergent Church as moving towards a One World Religion. At least, not if this religion is to be built around common beliefs, practices or experiences. In fact, I think the movement is more towards allowing and embracing a wider variety of beliefs, practices and experiences.
Of course, this in itself is damnable enough to many more conservative Christians. I'm not really interested in arguing about this here and now, but I will say that it's precisely the Emergent attitude towards diversity that attracts me to them.
Maybe I'm obsessing because I'm trying to write a book about hell, but it seems to me that the concept of hell (which is not mentioned in the article) is the true looming shadow behind objectison to the Emergent Chruch. We are scared that if we drift too far from the truth, God will be angry and send us to hell.
Really, this seems to be the only good reason to opose something like the emergent church... Inceases social justice? good! Lack of hatred between religions? good! Mystical religious experience? good! The kicker seems to be that if we get it wrong, God will get angry and smite us.
This is both a depresssing and a scary thought. Christians themselves have disagreed on what objective truth is through the ages There is not ONE Chritian faith of our forefathers.. there is the Catholic church, the Orthodox church, there were Origen and the Alexandrians and the Reformation and Calvinism and Arminianism and and modern evangelicals that somehow pretend they believe what everyone else believed all along.
Is this really what Christianity boils down to? Hoping desperately that we believe it correctly so God will see fit not to beat us up? That doesn't seem right...
(P.S. This is not meant to be an attack on "Dr Dee" or "annonymous".. just a very bitter observation. I've read too much Jonathan Edwards and had too little sleep.)
"Ken, you have been given a forum to address issues of great importance to the body of Christ and many people need to hear some of the facts about many of these issues, but you have let yourself and your demeaning and name calling style obscure what you are saying. I have also been guilty of some of that (I.e. Spiritual Pedophiles) but God has shown me that I cannot sacrifice Christlikeness on the altar of doctrinal truth and correction and as a matter of fact Christlikeness is doctrinal truth. You cannot use certain statements and events in the life of Christ to justify your words while you ignore the overwhelming number of verses that call us to be “clothed with humility”. (quoted from judaslion.blogspot.com)
I enjoy the interaction and hope that some profit will "evolve" from it.
"D"
I LOVE theology bar graphs!
thanks.
Michelle
[+/-] Real Live Preacher |
Note (July 08): I've updated the links in this post - most of these stories are now in the rlp archives. Just so you know. Also, at this point the Preacher is no longer shipping his books, which is a shame. I trust he'll start again at some point.I recently read RealLivePreacher.com (the book), by Gordon Atkinson. I finally bought a copy because the Preacher is now selling them personally (there's a story behind that, if you're interested). Each book now comes with a little handwritten note and a couple random objects stuck between the pages.
Nearly all the essays in the book can also be read on his blog, but for some reason it's exciting to have them in tactile form. And as a bonus, I now have a slightly risque free beer token from some pub in Texas, a CD of Mexican music, and a packet of vanilla chai tea.
The book is worth buying, even if you're not an avid reader of the blog. It's kind of a "best of", and it makes a good introduction to the Preacher. Most of my very favorites are there, such as:
The Preacher's Story
George the Middle, Beginning and End
The two about Rabbi Jonah and Robert
The Advent and Passion of Elliot
John the Baptist (still cracks me up)
Bifocals
These are excellent stories. I don't like to throw around the words "must read", but I'm tempted to invoke them here.
And if you want to read more, here are a few good ones that didn't make the book:
The Truth About Snow
The Soft Stories series - Old Man Cedar, Chloe, Looking For Elliot and Main's Folly
The Gospel According To Anna
The Foy Davis series
The Preacher also wrote an excellent dramatic version of the Christmas Story, which is now available as an audiobook. It's beautiful and insightful, and well worth purchasing.
[+/-] I Want To Pray To Mary |
Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
It's such a beautiful prayer. So poetic. Reverent, but warm. Grace, blessing, holiness, a plea for intercession, and an acknowledgment of mortality. You could not write a better prayer.
The problem is I don't believe that Mary stuff. I don't believe she has some special power or authority, and I can't help but feel that God doesn't approve of me praying to a dead woman. Particularly because I don't believe in it. I don't have a problem with those pray and believe it, but I feel like I shouldn't, because I don't.
I say the prayer and the words are hot in my mouth. They taste like swear-words tasted in grade two, like beauty tinged with blasphemy.
Will God forgive me this prayer? I don't pray much. Will God appreciate the reverence of this prayer, how it makes me aware of my need for grace and help, and the feeling of comfort and security it brings me? Or is He angry that I long to pray to a mortal, but have so little to say to Him?
I firmly believe that it doesn't matter what name we give to God. He's called a thousand names; I think He can figure out who we mean. And I don't think He minds that most of us pray to a well groomed, Caucasian Jesus. But "Mary" is not a name I have for God.
Even "Mother" doesn't bother me. Nothing wrong with a Mother God, whatever Johnny Cash says. (That line about the father hen really pisses me off.) But Mother of God is something else.
Maybe I can't do it. That makes me sad.
But I can certainly say "La Elaha Ela Allah". It doesn't have quite the same feel to it, but it's beautiful and meaningful, and I think I really believe it.
La Elaha Ela Allah.
There is no god but God. So I probably shouldn't pray to Her mother.
3 comments:
i like the imagery.
"Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad"
Listen Israel! The LORD is our God...It is only Him!
[+/-] On Pain and Its Redemption |
I got thinking recently about the idea that all the suffering we experience is ultimately for our own good. It's true that we often seem to become stronger, wiser, more compassionate, and so on, as a result of hardship. Perhaps God is justified in allowing or causing pain because ultimately the good it produces in us outweighs the inherent evil of our suffering.
For most of us (Kantians may disagree), the ethicality of inflicting pain on someone "for their own good" is a question of ratios. How much pain are we talking about? How much good may result? How likely is the desired result, how devastating the worst case scenario, etc. I think we can agree that disciplining children, in a reasonable and restrained way, is necessary and good. Few of us would wish that we had never experienced pain, and perhaps some of us who have experienced great pain believe that it ultimately worked for our benefit or betterment. It's difficult to speculate about what a completely pain-free creation might look like, but I'm willing to concede that a certain amount of pain (perhaps much more than I would think) is necessary in order to make us what we are meant to be.
Still, it's hard to imagine all the pain we experience having a positive effect. I don't have a problem with God putting us through adversity, but sometimes it feels like He's pruning with a canon. Pain seems to weaken or destroy people as often as it heals them.
It's not the existence of pain that bothers me. It's not even the amount, strictly. (It certainly looks excessive to me, but who am I to say what's necessary?) What horrifies me about pain is that it seems to be distributed completely at random. Pain falls in great mounds and bare spots, choking many of us with more than we can bear and leaving some with less than they need. Could it be that the God who wrote the laws of physics and wove our DNA allows suffering to rain down on us, but cannot regulate the flow? Or am I to believe that tsunamis and genocides are doled out with eyedropper precision? How then can I account for those who are overwhelmed and ruined by extraordinary pain?
In my attempts to account for what seems to be a profligacy of suffering, I feel that I have a choice between two extremes: either I must believe that God is in way over his head, powerless to reign in the horrific and gratuitous suffering of so many of his creatures, or else I must believe that God's power far surpasses even my wildest dreams.
Please do not confuse the latter god with that of orthodox Christianity. I'm talking about a god who possesses power and a plan that far surpasses what any religion permits me to hope for. A god who is at work on something wholly beyond my understanding - a god who will not merely bring an end to suffering, but who secretly collects every drop of senseless pain and evil and works it all for some greater good.
I don't see a place for a middle-strength god - one who commands the wind and the waves but cannot stop hurricanes and tsunamis, who saves forever His elect, but loses the rest of creation to hellfire.
I don't think the profusion of senseless and destructive suffering is a mere misperception. I see evil in this world that no theodicy can account for, and no god I've heard of could possibly set right. I do not have the ability to be optimistic about the ultimate goodness of our suffering. My only choices are dark pessimism, or wild, desperate hope.
15 comments:
What about hell? You may have a point there, but I think that even hell is a state from which humans can be redeemed. Besides, whatever else hell is, it's supposed to be justified pain...
Which leads me to a final point. I can't agree with Christians like RC Sproul who seem to think that any suffering we might incur is fair because we are totally depraved... but I do think it's reasonable that some percentage of what we suffer is "justified" in terms of the evil we do. Sometimes there's a direct link to our own evil and the pain we suffer (such as jail for breaking the law.) Usually, the crime doesnt' fit the punishment so well, but the fact remains that we both commit and recieve evil. I guess I'm saying I believe in karma (to a limited degree)... At the end of time, the scales get balanced; either fairly, or infinitely unfairly in our favor.
I do not think that God is here, keeping tabs on our life. The joy is in the living and we have been given a great gift. Our lives are the reward and the punishment.
That's terrific. But piling grace and goodness on top of evil does not negate the evil. Imagine a father who brutally beats his child for one day, and then becomes a model parent for the rest of his life. On balance he's a good dad, but that doesn't excuse what he did. No one will say of him, "Yes, he treated his child horriffically, but for such a short time!"
I think it may have been misleading to call belief in gratuitous suffering "dark pessimism". I think its possible to have a positive worldview despite this belief, particularly if you also believe in eternal bliss. But gratuitous suffering is still gratuitous suffering. If we really believe that much of our pain is senseless and unneccessary, the promise that God will "make it up to us" in the distant future is small comfort. At least for me.
I think I agree with your clarification, since I believe in gratuitous suffering (in the sense that it is not inflicted with express purpose). I guess I believe that God lets the world just run, a lot of the time, that tsunamis and earthquakes and mudslides and disease mutations just happen... or are caused by supernatural forces other than God.
I think we often forget that evil beings (Satan, demons, whatever) are also part of our theology, and they have limited (but extensive) power to make things suck for us. I have no idea how these things work or what rules they are governed by, but it's reasonable to assume that a being of pure evil would make humans suffer- through natural or supernatural means- as much as they were able... perhaps Satan, too, is permitted to act according to his own free will some of the time, even if it sucks for the rest of us?
I remember CS Lewis writing about how we are "invaders on an inhabited planet"- inhabited by Satan; and Lewis' theory that evern animal suffering was somehow caused by Satan's (not man's) fall from grace. It was interesting, anway.
FM: So I don't know this from personal experience, but I suspect the prospect of future rewards tends to be a greater consolation for those who struggle with great personal suffering than for those who (like myself) approach this as a somewhat abstract intellectual dilemma.
Of course it's true that there are other free agents in our world than God, possibly including evil spirits. Biblically, it's unclear how much "veto power" God holds over the destructive decisions of other beings. But it's hardly more comforting to think that demons hurt us against God's will than to think that impersonal forces of nature hurt us against God's will. In either case the pain is the same, and God is far weaker than I want him to be.
I wrench with inner pain when I read between the lines of your writings. I sense the anguish of foiled effort and fruitless search, but I have begun to ask what is it that "this Jacob" really seeks. I quote the "about Jacob," at the top of the blog page, "I'm looking for something.
God, maybe. Or truth. Purpose.
I'm what Christians might call a seeker, except that I'm a Christian myself and I'm still seeking."
You define the God of your perception in the last article, "I'm talking about a god who possesses power and a plan that far surpasses what any religion permits me to hope for. A god who is at work on something wholly beyond my understanding - a god who will not merely bring an end to suffering, but who secretly collects every drop of senseless pain and evil and works it all for some greater good. I don't see a place for a middle-strength god - one who commands the wind and the waves but cannot stop hurricanes and tsunamis, who saves forever His elect, but loses the rest of creation to hellfire."
My question to you (and all your readers) might be, should you find this God, what would be your reason and response? Is it to understand Him? I heard it once said, "If you can find me an earthworm that understands the ways of a man, I'l promise to find you a man who understands the ways of God."
If our search of God is to arrange a debate with Him and tell Him a thing or two - I wish you good luck! because you will need it!
If our search for God is to sincerely worship Him - I assure you that, like many before us have found, He is not hard to find. One might argue: "How can we worship One we don't admire? How do we admire one we don't know?"
Maybe it's better to ask, "How much does your favorite pet know about you?" Does it really matter to that relationship? How much do we really know about anything? The more I have learned the more I know that I don't know much at all.
Is the search of God something to satisfy ourselves, so that we can meet some inner need? The link to finding God is so simple that most of us miss it. In our anarchial perspective of life we don't like it. Jesus said, "If you love me do what I've said." The key to finding a meaningful relationship with God is the attitude of worshipful obedience. It involves the turning away from self centered living to a total dedication of life and purpose to bring the most possible glory and honor to God. This is not humanly possible because we like to be gods to ourselves. However, we were promised the Holy Spirit who would teach, correct and enable us to live in such a way that we are able to fulfill the predesigned purpose for each life. Those that find this, are "the elect!" The elect are prechosen because of the fore knowledge of God, Who saw the level of willingness on each of those individuals to bow in humble worshipful. He then provides an ever growing willingness to obey the prompting of His Holy Spirit.
The evil we face is not the fault of God either by effect or lack of intervention. God is not too weak to stop what we deem painful, destructive, or even conterproductive. Any time that human choices deviate from that perfect plan it will produce to a greater or lesser degree - certain pain and destruction. An affect not limited to the person themself, but also on those around them. This ripple effect can reach forword for generations. It can only be stopped by those individuals who at any point and at anytime in that cycle, return to the choices that produce true worshipful obedience to God. An individual cannot affect change on the whole of society, but can totally change the outcome of their own life and others around them. This is the truest rendering of the Biblical term repentance.
It is difficult to capture in a few sentences the profound and wonderful purposes of God. But I hope and pray that your search of God will bring you to Him, but on your knees.
Dr. DEE
Actually, the God of unfathomable power described in this post is not at all "the God of [my] perception". He is the God I hope exists, despite the fact that everything I perceive suggests otherwise.
I suppose my response to God, should I find him, would depend on how he reveals himself. Based on others' experiences, it seems that God isn't all that interested in being understood by us (even to the extent that we could understand him). I suspect that an encounter with God, whatever form it might take, would not open my eyes to the true nature of the universe, the extent of God's power, or the cause of human suffering. But it might change my perspective.
I'm certainly not hoping to fully understand God, and I have no interest in accusing him of anything. The idea of wrestling with God appeals to me, but I doubt he'll ever give me the opportunity.
I do wish to sincerely worship God and I think I manage to do this on occasion, although not perfectly. (And I don't think the desires to worship God and to fight him are mutually exclusive.) However, although I don't doubt that many who have desired this have found God near at hand, I think there are many others who have had the opposite experience.
If you're suggesting that my failure to find God indicates a lack of desire to worship Him, I would remind you that God does not deal with everyone the same way. Your own experiences with God do not make you an expert on my motives or desires.
You're right that knowledge about God is not necessary for a relationship, but relationship is not the goal here. I have neither knowledge nor relationship, but I still deal with God as a philosophical issue. God for me is a belief that can, I hope, be reconciled with my experiences and knowledge. That's the project this post addresses. You seem to construe everything I write as a cry for God to reveal Himself or a lament for His absence. It's not.
Regarding pain, I certainly agree that human evil causes a large percentage of our world's suffering, but we can't be blamed for all of it. Even if God has good reason to allow humans to inflict horrific suffering on ourselves and creation, there's a lot more pain to be accounted for.
Job:38:1: Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job:38:2: Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job:38:3: Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job:38:4: Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding....
The rest of the book (of Job) makes a relevant read, okay, the rest of the book (the Bible) makes a relevant read, but you get the "."
The difference between my questions and Job's is that Job presupposed the existence of a powerful God. So Job's claim that he suffered unjustly implied that God had wronged him.
I'm not accusing God of anything. I'm not saying anything to God here at all. This may be difficult to believe, but my questions about the existence and nature of God are not fueled by anger or bitterness.
I'm not attacking the God with whom you presumably have a relationship. I'm just trying to figure out if I believe in Him.
Is that ok? Do you think God's annoyed by my philosophical pondering?
you're going straight to hell:)
I am glad to engage in discussion on these matters. I can not totally identify with the philosophical approach because there is a certain complexity that is created by the philosopher in which only he/she really knows the truth of what is being said. I can not argue with the same eloquence, I just know the things that have worked for me and many others that have been in my charge to help over the years. God is not distant to those that seek Him humbly. If you or I might have reached the status of humility let us not try to judge that but rather let the attitude of humility govern how we think and act, and God will respond in return. God is not interested in "sharing the stage" with anyone - He doesn't need to -because there is none that compares or equals Him in any way.
The sense of His presence and His care about me gives me the strength to carry on even when things are very tough and adverse. The only perception I disagree with in these comments would be the perception that we could find God by trying to define or challenge Him. Jacob of old had the chance to wrestle with God in a physical way. Some times we idealize some things that will never be our own experiences. I personally would never want to challenge God -there is no way that you or I would be His match.
I find it helpful to read the various perspectives, so as long as I can, I will continue to drop in on your musings from time to time...
"Dr.DEE"
Have you really found that God is not distant to all those who seek Him humbly? I'm pretty sure I know a few other people who haven't had this experience, and it surprises me that you haven't encountered any.
So what do you make of me? Is it at all possible that I've sought earnestly and not found? Or are you so confident that you know God's ways that you think I must be either lying or somehow confused about my experience?
I never said "we could find God by trying to define or challenge Him". I'm not challenging God. I wouldn't exactly say I'm trying to define God either. More like trying to form a reasonable belief about Him. In any case, my purpose is NOT to provoke God into revealing himself. I think I've been quite clear about this.
You're probably right that I idealize wrestling with God. I'm sure it would be a hell of an experience. Of course I wouldn't be a match for Him, but that's not really the point.
When I hear the Jacob story (wrestling God) the first thing I think of is how exhausted the guy must have been. A regular wrestling match is 4-6 minutes long. I once went 14 minutes. Can't even imagine wrestling "until the breaking of the day". Then there's the ground; wrestling on a soft mat can cut you up plenty, Jacob most have been oozing blood everywhere doing it on a riverbank. Plus, wrestling God... must be crazy strong- dislocates a hip with one touch, afrer all. I wonder what technique one could try... but I digress.
I don't think I ever quite understood the symbolism of that story. Not sure the more literal aspects have any deeper meaning, but I couldn't resist.
This was what you said:
"I'm talking about a god who possesses power and a plan that far surpasses what any religion permits me to hope for."
It sounds to me like you are deliberately referencing Ephesians 3:20 - "Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us."
That sounds like Christian Orthodoxy to me!
But then you demand "A god who is at work on something wholly beyond my understanding"
You mean a God of whom one could say, "How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!" (Romans 11:33)
Sounds like Christian Orthodoxy to me!
You are also looking for "a god who will not merely bring an end to suffering, but who secretly collects every drop of senseless pain and evil and works it all for some greater good."
You might as well say 'I am interested in a God who works "all things for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."' (Romans 8:28)
And that... is orthodox Christianity.
Look, Jake, the problem of evil is a huge problem. The central question for Orthodox Christianity is if evil can be accommodated by a God like the God of the Bible. I think it can. You disagree. Don't you?
It was a while ago, but you're probably right that I was thinking of Eph 3:20. The problem with the claim that God can do more (immeasurably more!) than we can imagine is that most of us, like Han Solo, can imagine quite a bit.
Does the Bible really portray a God whose power is beyond what we can imagine? Well, maybe some of it. But I think you'd agree that the Biblical God usually comes across as less than omnipotent. Or even immeasurablymorethanwecanimagine-potent.
It's certainly orthodox to believe that God works in ways that are beyond our understanding. If we believe that God works at all in this crazy world, we've got to believe that.
And I suppose one could even argue from rhapsodic exclamations like Rom 11:33 that the biblical God may be capable of what I want him to be. But this would not be an orthodox interpretation, would it? I don't remember anything about universal salvation or the redemption of all creation in the creeds.
Rom 8:28 is one of the most hopeful and encouraging verses in the Bible, and it certainly influenced my thoughts. In fact, I would be content to cling to this verse and go no further, so long as I could be allowed to believe that all are "called according to his purpose." Unfortunately, in the next chapter Paul gives every indication that he doesn't believe all are called.
Orthodox Christianity certainly accounts for a great deal of evil. But not all of it. I mean, Orthodox Christians believe that most of humanity is destined to be separated from God for eternity.
That's a lot of evil. I can't accept that much evil.
[+/-] What I Learned About Quakers |
I attended a Quaker church last Sunday. He's what I think of when I think Quakers:
1. Underground railroad
2. Old-fashioned clothes, like the the oatmeal guy.
3. Pacifism
4. Mysticism
Pretty good list. I've always thought Quakers were awesome, even though I didn't know much about them.
Well it turns out Quaker meetings are boring as hell. Seriously, this may have been the most boring church service I have ever attended in my life. But not in a bad way. I mean, I can imagine it being good if I was a different person. Basically it was 45 minutes of silence, followed by a brief open sharing time. People just talked about what they'd been thinking about; none of it was overtly "spiritual".
So I'm not likely to attend their meetings on a regular basis, but I am pretty much in love with them. Specifically their beliefs and values. Their big thing is that each of us individually is guided by God, and that this guidance, not the Bible, is our ultimate authority. They don't believe in creeds, religious hierarchies, or church rituals. Sometimes I wonder if Christians really believe we're indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and what we might look like if we did. Maybe we'd look like the Quakers.
So they're radically individualistic, and also really into experiencing God, in a low key, mystical kind of way, but they're also big on community. That's why they come together to sit quietly for an hour: apparently they're actually seeking some kind of communal mystical experience with God. They get awesome points for putting the words "communal" and "mystical" in the same sentence.
They're so serious about this that they make decisions by consensus. They have no church leadership of any kind. Instead they have business meetings were they each listen to what they feel is God's leading and then they talk about it until the all agree.
Also, they're extremely egalitarian, and have been since the beginning. Not only did they oppose slavery, but since their conception in the 17th century Quakers have refused to acknowledge class distinctions and have treated women as social and spiritual equals. (Who would have guessed the Quaker Oats guy was a feminist?)
Other cool things: they dress plainly, they've never been anti-intellectual, they don't distinguish between the sacred and the secular, they don't believe in telling lies or attempting to deceive in any way, they'd sooner go to jail than fight in a war, and they welcome non-Christians as full members of their communities. You can be a Muslim, a Buddhist, or an Atheist and also be a Quaker.
(Apparently there's a more conservative branch of Quakers which places more emphasis on the Bible and conducts slightly more conventional meetings. The statements above are generalities, and are probably more accurate for liberal Quakers.)
I know not all of you will be as impressed by this stuff as I am, but whatever you think about their beliefs (or however boring you find their meetings) you have to respect these people for the way they live their convictions. Besides the anti-slavery stuff, Quakers won the 1947 Nobel Peace Prize, and have been involved in the founding of organizations like Greenpeace, Oxfam, and Amnesty International.
3 comments:
Matt
But I may go back. At the moment I don't want to abandon my project, but when it's over I may end up attending one of these churches. There's a good chance I'll give the Quakers at least a second visit.
[+/-] Ebenezer Scrooooge |
I attended the St Joseph's College Chapel this week. I liked it. It still had that high church feel, but was small enough to feel cozy. They read the story of the rich man and Lazarus, which I found confusing. Here's the last bit:
"Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment."I find that hard to believe. Does Jesus really think that people who don't listen to scripture won't be moved by miracles? Don't we all know people who repented only after experiencing a miracle? And didn't miracles accompanied the words of God throughout the scriptures, particularly in the cases of "Moses and the Prophets"?
Abraham replied, "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them."
"No, father Abraham," he said, "but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent."
He said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."- Luke 16:27-31
Didn't God preform many miracles through Moses to give authority to his message?
Didn't Elijah, the greatest of the prophets, call down fire from heaven to prove to Israel that his God was the true God?
Didn't Jesus give his witnesses miraculous power, and wasn't the performance of miracles a cornerstone of evangelism in the early church? Wasn't the great missionary Paul converted as the direct result of a miracle (specifically, an encounter with a dead man)?
Didn't Jesus himself augment his teaching with miracles? Didn't he use these miracles to shock people, to make them think, and to establish his authority as a messenger from God?
And isn't Jesus' own resurrection from the dead the cornerstone of Christianity? Didn't this great miracle (the very thing that the parable says would change no one's mind) open the disciples' eyes to the truth of Jesus' message?
This parable's perspective on miracles sounds very modern to me. People are always trying to tell me that we don't get a lot of miracles these days because people wouldn't listen to them anyway, and the Bible by itself should be enough to convince anyone. I don't see that anywhere in the Bible ...except here. Can anyone explain this to me? Can this passage be harmonized with the flashy methods of prophecy and evangelism that pervade the Bible? (I've included a few biblical counterpoints below.) Does anyone believe that people who reject the Bible would not be moved even by an encounter with a dead man?
I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit.- Ro 15:18-19
But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.- 1 Cor 4:19-20
And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.- 1 Cor 15:14
8 comments:
Jeusus DOES raise a man named Lazarus from the dead. Jesus himself rises from the dead. If the Bible is to be believed, there were many of Jesus' contemptoraries who did exactly what the parable suggests. they refused ot believe in the face of overwheling miraculous signs.
OY!!! For those who do, there goes your proof, for those who don't, nothing is ever good enough.
G_d doesn't do incontrovertible proof until it's all over.
To do so would basically eliminate the need for faith I suppose, I believe I can think of other reasons as well.
Have you considered that you don't believe the Bible either? I'm not trying to insult you man, but have a look back over you blog entries, clearly you don't. If that's offensive, and you'd like to say you do, well then, how about it? You can still question and explore from a stance of taking thing on faith you know....
I'm not going to spout that silly WWJD stuff, but live / think /act / write as though you could see Jesus standing there (as he is) watching you as you go about life (sort of "What Would You Do if you saw Jesus standing there?" What would Jesus do simply doesn't apply, he's G_d, your man, comparison is academic at best). If you can do that, I doubt anyone will question your faith, in Heaven or on the Earth.
It's a happy place to be to have the truth, and know it, (provided your not a great variance with it).
But be that as it may, to have the truth to stand on is like being the only one on land, while everyone else is bobbing about in the water.. (I speak of the corporate body of believers as an individual here) Even if you don't measure up (I'm thinking of myself here), your situation is far better than theirs...
Take some time, look @ the Bible, the very word of G_d. Is it, or no?
If it is continue on the path your on, otherwise then we are of all men most miserable, what are you doing here?
So do you think that anyone who doesn't believe the Bible wouldn't change his mind even if he saw a dead man come back to life?
Regarding free will, the Bible is full of stories of God giving incontrovertible (or at least, hardly controvertible) proof of the authority of his messengers. Frequently these miracles do cause people to believe, without, it seems, wholly eliminating the need for faith. (I think faith in the Bible tends to be less about what God has done than what he will do.)
Do I believe the Bible? Depends what you mean by that. I believe it contains truth. I believe it presents a fairly accurate account of the life and teaching of Jesus. But I don't believe it's infallible, or was dictated by God, or is the final authority for all people in all circumstances.
Anyway... as Jacob points out repeatedly in the blogs you are apparently familiar with, even those who accept the Bible as truth still differ greatly on what exactly it means. The "corporate body of believers" has been tearing each other to bits (often literally) since the time of Christ over interpretation.
BTW what's your take on the role of the miraculous in bringing people to faith, or the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus?
hello, yes, I was quoting you.
I know I'm sounding contentious and impolite on a very nice and respectful blog where that isn't being done much, but I'm saying what needs to be said, so, kick me out, or hear it.
I'm hoping I'm not going off on Jacob as much as I am expressing the exasperation of trying to "talk G_d" without being able to point to the Bible and have it be an authoritative end to controversy. In as much as our Lord had the same experience with the Jews (though his followers were the Jews, really, and those Priests and lawyers were not), and wound up being unable to make much headway, I guess it's nothing new.
Do the Quakers value individual revelation over the Bible? Would the two eve disagree, or do anything but embellish each other (assuming authenticity)???? Can you be a Mohammedan and a Quaker? I never heard any of that. Our North East Quakers are pretty much in the same place as when they they came, but I'm no authority on them, so...
I don't know what you have for Quakers out there. Sounds like Jacob has met some pretty "liberal" ones, and being ignorant of anything else, taken their word for what a quaker is.
Which connects back to the point, without the written word, anyone can say anything, an the ignorant (or innocent, as they may be) will have no way to test it. Sure G_d reviles all sorts of things on an individual basis to people, evidently to unsaved ones too @ times... But it never disagrees with his written word, and often is only (or at least best) understood in light of the written word.
I guess I should put it like this, on the question of what id G_d say, when this dispute was between Our Lord and Satan (now how fundamental a debate could there be) what did Jesus say? "..it is written.., scripture says...".
Go argue with him.
Be sure to say:
"But I don't believe it's infallible, or was dictated by God, or is the final authority for all people in all circumstances."
While your at it you might ask, "but who is my neighbor"...
Try to see how you really sound!
"...what's your take on the role of the miraculous in bringing people to faith, or the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus?"
Sure, I'll just sit here and write a book. Could you narrow down your area of interest a bit?
If you're looking for a foolproof final authority on all matters, simply believing in the inspiration of scripture won't do. You'll have to approach it with some very modern notions about inspiration and truth, you'll have to practice some creative hermeneutics to get a pronouncement on every relevant matter, and most importantly, you'll have to believe the the Bible is authoritative not only as it was written, but as it is read and interpreted by you.
Sure, we can't know for certain that the convictions we feel on a given matter are from God. But neither can we be certain that our understanding of the Bible's positions on that matter are accurate. It might be easier to reach consensus on the latter point in many cases, but consensus is not the same thing as truth, and the easiest way is not always the best.
You ask whether individual revelation would ever disagree with the Bible. I guess it depends what you mean by disagree. There's an awful lot of disagreement within the Bible on particulars (e.g. Jesus amends a lot of the Mosaic laws) but this doesn't mean that the same God couldn't have inspired the whole thing. Of course there will be similar principles and a similar spirit behind all of God's revelations, but the Bible itself is full of stories of God inspiring people in ways that go beyond, or even alter, previous revelations.
Jesus certainly quoted scripture, and he certainly regarded it as an authority, but not as a final authority. If Jesus and his disciples thought scripture was the final authority, there would be no New Testament.
Regarding Quakers, of course I'm not an authority either. But I did explicitly say that my statements about them were generalities, and would tend to be more accurate of the liberal branch of Quakers. Most of my post was gleaned from wikipedia, and substantiated by literature I picked up at the meeting. So I'm not sure what the problem is.
Wikipedia says about Quakers: Although Quakers throughout most of their history and in most parts of the world today consider Quakerism to be a Christian movement, some Friends (principally in some Meetings in the United States and the United Kingdom) now consider themselves universalist, agnostic, atheist, realist, humanist, postchristian, or nontheist, or do not accept any religious label.[4] Calls for Quakerism to include non-Christians go back at least as far as 1870,[5] but this phenomenon has become increasingly evident during the latter half of the 20th century and the opening years of the 21st century, and is still controversial among Friends. An especially notable example of this is that of Friends who go beyond simply being non-Christian, but actively identify as a member of another faith, such as Islam[6] or Buddhism.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers
[+/-] Hell and Justice |
I've been rethinking hell. It's been along time since I took seriously the idea that humanity deserves eternal suffering. But I decided I should try to make a cool-headed assessment of the various possibilities. I’ve approached this by considering what might constitute a just cause for damnation.
1. Anything at all, or even nothing
This is the view that God needs no reason for causing his creatures infinite suffering. Rather than God being just because He acts justly, His actions are just because they're performed by God. God alone makes the rules; there are no transcendent moral laws by which He abides. The interesting and troubling implication of this view is that there is nothing inherently wrong about any action, however horrific it may seem to us. So the only reason why rape is wrong is that God says "Don't rape people". If God didn't command us not to rape, there would be nothing wrong with rape.
So is justice a transcendent law, or merely a part of creation? I suspect that most of us can imagine something an almighty God would be capable of doing which would be wrong. (He may in fact be prevented from doing it by His inherently just nature, but that's another issue.) I think causing immeasurable suffering to a helpless and undeserving creature is an example of something that would be unjust even for God. Consequently, if we are to believe in damnation, we must believe that it is something we deserve.
But you could take the opposite position - that anything God could possibly do or command would be just. My problem with this, besides the effect it has on my stomach, is that this makes justice kind of an empty concept. How can we make sense of saying "God is just" if "just" simply means "what God is"? If all God’s qualities are understood this way, it’s difficult to understand why He’s worthy of worship or obedience or love.
2. Someone else's sin
So if I've established that God is in some way constrained to act justly, the next question is whether (or to what extent) I understand what justice is. Is it possible that my own intuitions about justice could be wildly mistaken, and that justice permits - or even requires - one person to be punished for the sins of another? I'm don't think I could imagine anything that seems more fundamentally unjust, but it appears that at least some biblical authors disagree. Could it be that every one of us is guilty and deserving of damnation because of our ancestors' sins? That even infants who do not have free will and thus have never sinned are nonetheless under the righteous wrath of God? I have a hard time believing that my moral intuitions - intuitions which I'm told are given to me by God, those same gut feelings that tells me rape and murder are wrong - are so drastically mistaken on this point. The idea that we are justly found guilty of crimes we have not committed is beyond my imagination.
If this is justice, am I meant to comprehend it? Might I some day understand rationally that children are guilty of their parents' sins, and that every one of us really deserves to burn for Adam's disobedience? Or is it something that I must take on faith? If I were to try to believe that what seems to me the most grievous of all possible injustices is, in some unfathomable way, completely just, I would have to have to have enormous confidence in the source of this doctrine, and in my correct understanding of it. I'm a long way away.
3. One's own sin
If we accept that God acts justly, and that our understanding of justice is not wholly mistaken, we can move on to the question of eternal punishment. I fully understand that I am an imperfect creature, both by nature (which is not my doing, and for which I am not deserving of punishment) and continual choice (for which I do deserve punishment). I recognize that I do not deserve to stand before a holy God because of my willful unholiness. But do I deserve infinite punishment for my finite sin? If I've decided to believe that there is such a thing as justice apart from the will or whims of God, and that it is at least somewhat comprehensible to me, can I make sense of the idea that unending torment is a fitting punishment for finite sins?
The first thing we have to get out of the way is the idea that some people deserve eternal torment and others don't. If there were any relationship between the degree of sin and the degree of punishment, no one could possibly deserve infinite punishment. As creatures with finite wills and powers, living finite lives in finite worlds, we cannot do infinite evil. So either Hitler does not deserve eternal suffering, or you and I and Mother Teresa all deserve it as well. If we believe in eternal punishment we must sever the intuitive link between the severity of a crime and the severity of its punishment.
Which is a hell of a task. Even ignoring the mind-boggling prospect of infinite suffering, can we accept that all crimes are deserving of equal punishment? Can we accept that a lie is precisely as damning as an act of genocide? I can't see how.
Once again, we cannot say that we're so evil we deserve eternal punishment. Either we deserve it because we are less than absolutely perfect, or we do not deserve it. Is eternal torment just punishment for the smallest imaginable sin? Again, I can't see how.
My conclusion at this point is I don’t believe a just God would punish anyone with eternal suffering. This is not the same as believing there is no hell. I've by no means considered all possibilities here, but it's a start. I may consider other options in a subsequent post. Anyway, let me know if you disagree on any point.
4 comments:
I agree- eternal torment does not seem to be a just punishment for, well, anything. If you were a professional torturer, maybe you would deserve a lifetime of torment (eye for an eye, as Moses said) but not forever.
For what it's worth, I'm starting to think that hell as "exclusion" rather than "punishment" makes much morse sense... sure both suck, but the emphasis in "exclusion" is on humanity's continuous (even after death) willingness to submit to God. And yes, I believe that someone might change their mind after death... "hey, this rebellion thing is kinda stupid" and be forgiven, by a God who is supposed to be all-merciful.
Finally, the fact that so many Christians (and others) can't really stomach the thought of hell should make us suspect that something could be wrong with the theology. After all, our consciences were given to us by God- and the Spirit helps us tell right from wrong- right? I half imagine Matthew (the Gospel writer) sitting up in heaven shaking his head: "gee, I shoulda phrased that differently!"
Hell doesn't make sense like most things I find in the Bible...again, I revert back to the cultural progression of reglion theory that we are still following the belief system of a nomadic desert people...
good job with the post
There is extensive evidence from scripture that HELL was NOT MEANT FOR HUMANS, however, our own refusal to accept or seek a relationship with G_D combined with our love of things promoted by the fallen angels dooms us to be condemned with them.
Look up 'Doctrines of Demons" a John Ankerberg presentation @UTube..
also, subscribe to my site ..
"www.youtube.com/amgineco"..
[+/-] Church Hopping |
I'm still here. I'm just kind of busy. I have a big messy post in the works and I'm having a hard time finding the time and energy to finish it. Also, I haven't got around to looking into the non-Christian YECs a recent commenter suggested. I'll let you know what I think when I get to them, either in the comments or a new post.
Just thought I'd let you all know about one of my projects for the immediate future. I've decided to stop going to my regular church, at least for a while, and check out a wide variety of other local churches. My main goal is to get a taste of many different ways of doing church (sort of a Generous Orthodoxy thing) and develop a basic familiarity with different denominations. And if I find a church where I feel like I fit in really well, that would be cool too.
I went to St Joseph's Basilica this week. I don't think I'm really a high church guy, but it's nice for a change. It's weird to think about how much money a building like that costs. I don't know whether an expense like that can be justified, even though it's really pretty. I have a hard time imagining Jesus of Nazareth approving of a building like that. On the other hand, he approved of spending a year's wages on perfume for his feet, and God himself ordered the construction of Solomon's temple. I don't know. Anyway, if anyone knows of an interesting, unique or awesome church in the Edmonton area, I'm open to suggestions.
Since I'm doing personal updates, my Bible-writing project has stalled. I've made it to about Matthew 15, but I haven't picked it up in a while. I still intend to.
2 comments:
I like the high churches. I definitely wasn't raised in them but they have an awe factor that gets me every time. I feel like when you are in a cathedral, you can't help but be quiet before God.
[+/-] The Problem With YEC |
I try to stay away from debates about the age of the earth or the methods by which God created life. For one thing I haven't done nearly enough research to have an educated opinion on the matter (although that doesn't stop a lot of people). For another, I don't particularly care.
I do recognize that for many people this is a serious issue. If the first two chapters of Genesis are not literal, historical truth, doubt is cast on the literal, historical truth of all other Bible stories. This is a valid concern, and I do care about how people interpret scripture, but I'd rather talk about that directly than get bogged down in some endless and tangential discussion of flood geology.
I'm not sure if anything could persuade me to take a real interest in Young Earth Creationism (YEC), but I would like to know whether I should regard it as anything more than fundamentalist dogma. I'm quite willing to give the theory any respect it may be due.
There are a couple of concerns that prevent me from taking YEC seriously. One is that I've observed what seems to be a widespread misunderstanding among it's proponents of words like "bias" and "presupposition", about which I have some knowledge, if not expertise. Having encountered what I believe to be incompetence among leading YECists in an area I know, I have difficulty giving them the benefit of the doubt in areas I do not. (I could say more about this, if you wish, but I won't go into it here and now.)
The second thing that prevents me from taking YEC seriously is that, as far as I know, conservative Christians are the only ones who believe any of it.
I stress the "as far as I know". I haven't actually searched for expert, non-Christian evolution or old earth skeptics. I sort of assume that if there were such people they would have been brought to my attention, but it's quite possible (what with me not really caring) that I may have missed them.
So how about it, YECs? Can anyone find a single person who fits the following description?
1. Is a recognized expert in a relevant field (eg. geology). Meaning he or she has a PhD in that field from a respected secular university, and is or was, if not at the top of his/her field, at least well respected by his/her peers.
2. Was not a YEC from the start. Meaning s/he was not raised as a conservative Christian and, without having examined it in detail, had always considered YEC to be mere religious dogma masquerading as science.
3. Now agrees with YEC about what the physical evidence indicates. Meaning that in the course of his/her research, this expert became convinced that the weight of evidence is against some well accepted cornerstone of atheistic evolution and now holds a position very like that of YECs. (Such as that there is strong evidence in the fossil record of a recent, global flood.)
4. Came to this belief on the basis of the physical evidence alone. Meaning that s/he did not convert to conservative Christianity and then change his/her mind about the evidence, but changed his/her mind before and independent of any religious conversion. It would be best if the expert was not a Christian at all.
If the YECists cannot produce such a person (and I don't know if they can or not, which is why I ask) I see no reason to take their position seriously.
25 comments:
That said, something that often pops up in Young Earth geology is the phrase "appearance of age"... basically it means that radiodating, or rock appearance, or light incoming to earth, or what have you looks "old" but, since we "know" from Genesis that the earth is young, we conclude that God has made the phenomenon "look old". (Like creating a full grown human being from nothing, but on a geological scale.)
This is one of those things that are hard to disprove, because God is perfectly capable of creating an Earth that looks however He wants, but you'd probably be hard pressed to find someone who believes it- unless they also believe in the literal truth of the Genesis creation story.
Still, there's lots of evidence they believe is in favor of a young earth, or a global flood, or whatever. I'd like to hear a non-YEC say something like "the fossil record contains strong evidence of a recent, global flood". (I think that's what I meant to say in the parenthesis of point 3. I'll change that.)
Creationism, God, these ideas, they lack this. Circumstantial evidence exists to a degree perhaps, but nothing truly concrete ... nothing that causes the logical me to say "Yes." Ergo, faith.
YECists tend to use emotion-bound arguements and catchphrases. One of their favorites is "But evolution is just a theory!"
So is gravity. And as many of use know Newtonian physics is indeed crumbling. (Newton spent his entire life trying to disprove his own arguments when for generations his Theory was near-gospel)
"Theory" is a scientific classification. So is "hypothesis. These may be rhetorical words used in arguments at times but in many scientific exercises and discources these are very technical terms. Theories are not considered "fact" but are backed up with enough evidence to support many a claim.
The problem you identify with YECists is that many (all?) are neo-conservative Christians who become scientists with a presupposition. This runs counter to science and is why statistics is often considered "damn lies" and not science, because all too often those finding statistics might be using some sort of bastardized version of the scientific method but in reality or "molding" their own views or the views of their sponsor into the final product.
Science is observation. It changes. The entire premise is it's intrinsic ability to change with understanding. It's not stuck on stupid when stupid clearly doesn't work.
YECists already have their answer, they just need to manipulate the question to fit the answer.
Maybe what I am saying is heresy- and I am saying this as someone who was raised in the God-fearing Bible Belt of the Good Ol' Southern US of A. - but the Bible is still a book that has been transcribed, translated, and copied multiple times. It was compiled by men hundreds of years after it was written (council of Nicea 325 AD).
Jacob, in the comments you made on an earlier post you called into question the importance of issues in reference to salvation. I, personally, see no importance to this argument in reference to my salvation. I think the Bible is flawed because I believe humanity is flawed and...for lack of a better term...shit happens.
Oh yeah and I agree with filth-man that fundamentalists are annoying =)
--Clare
So maybe YEC in a transciprition error! Someone got sick of tacking all those 0's on (on the first 1,000,000,000 years God created...) Problem solved!
Seriously, though Je Dois is right.. the Genesis story DOES sound like one would explain creation to an uneducated, non-scientific populace. "The the beginning God created the Big Bang, after which time He caused to universe to expland at a rate of X m/s for a period of..." doesn't have the same literary value, does it?
Jacob, if you're interested in the "scientific" arguments YEC have for a young earth, I can point you to some literature. However, if (as I suspect) you are more interested in finding a non-Christian who finds the evidence for Young Earth overwhelming, I can't help you. Suspect you will be looking for a while.
As far as I can tell, this method of interpretation is adopted primarily for convenience. If we entertained the possibility that some very absurd-sounding Bible stories weren't historically true, where do we draw the line? If the creation accounts aren't true (in every sense of the word, as it is understood by our culture) then what about Noah's ark? What about the Dead Sea? What about Jericho? The exploits of David? Mt Carmel? What about Jesus' resurrection? At what point do we say "this part is definitely beyond all doubt and in every sense of the word true"? It's safest just to believe it all.
People don't believe the Bible is flawed because they don't want it to be flawed. They don't want a collection of books written by Moses and Samuel and Paul. They want God's book. They want an infallible encyclopedia of correct beliefs. And because they want this so much, they can't imagine God not giving it to them.
Also, what books should we consider for our theology and insight? If Christians consider the Old Testament as important because it explains Jewish society, a society that Jesus was a member of then that is important for a historical base but isn't most of our knowledge gleamed from the words of Christ? If you follow the slippery slope argument then these precious red letters are doomed to the same fate as the stories that are illustrated in most children's bibles. I think, however, that there is a reason that the slippery slope is a logical fallacy. It doesn't have to be one way or another.
This hit home for me personally when I lived abroad. I came to realize that religion is a culturally adapted product. I, as a resident of Texas, was raised to believe that alcohol is sinful in all amounts. When I studied in England, we were encouraged to take our bible study materials into the pubs. Do we believe in the same Jesus Christ? Yes. Do we all believe that God is alpha and omega? Yes. We just get caught up in the details.
I understand that it is very hard to tell someone who considers themself a seeker of truth that there are some truths that cannot be known. And I don't mean to gloss over religion. I think we should be diligent in the study of our faith. I think we should understand the words that we believe in so greatly. At the same time there has to be a point where logic and reasoning come into our faith. I don't find the Genesis account of creation logical or reasonable so I choose not to believe it. I think filth-man has an excellent point with Theistic Evolution. Why is the Church scared of Science? We have two ways to study God- his word and his creation. Science and Theology do not agree because they are man's interpretations of these two avenues of knowledge. We shouldn't discount completely one or the other but be aware that knowledge is meant to change and that includes our knowledge of our faith.
Sorry for the sermon =)
Clare: I agree.
or even these people http://www.icr.org/
Dr Wilson makes succinct and well formed arguments, I'd have to advance him as a good, credentialed representative of creationist thought (relevant for the very reasons you describe).
after all, if the foundation isn't strong, or isn't (at all) what then?
Not sure I understand the "foundation" comment. If you are talking about the Christian faith, I don't think an Old Earth belief damages that. If you are talking about Biblical inerrancy you may have a point.
That being said, I also have a lot of trouble giving any credibility to the YEC proponents I have heard.
Matt: you're right that becoming convinced of the YEC's scientific beliefs would probably cause one to take a good look at their religious beliefs. If a credible expert did exactly that, it would certainly lend credibility to the YEC. However, it is imperative, as I said, that the scientific conversion happens "before and independent of" the religious one. A non-Christian who believed in some significant aspect of YEC would be more impressive only because it would be clear that her scientific opinion was not the result of her religious beliefs.
So we might be justified is asking "is there anything we observe that leads us to believe that Genesis is the revealed word (will) of God, and if so, must it be interpreted literally?
If what we observe about the Earth shows us that it is billions, not thousands of years old, we need to choose between our beliefs... (Faith might lead us to believe in the Bible over Geology regardless of evidence).
Those that think BOTH physical evidence and Genesis (literally interpreted) point to the same thing; well, there's not too many of them, and they are the Young Earth Creationists.
11:3)
Still not sure what the foundation comment is about. Unless you mean that a literal reading of the Genesis creation accounts is the foundation of our faith. But I don't know how the verse you quoted relates to this.
"Everything Scripture teaches about sin and redemption assumes the literal truth of the first three chapters of Genesis. If we wobble to any degree on the thruth of this passage we undermine the vcery foundations of our faith."
I don't agree with MacArthur so much (being a Christian but not much of a YEC) but I can see how an old-earth theology gets messy with verses like "as in Adam all die, in Christ all will be made alive". I suppose one can deny young-earth but believe in a literal Adam or somehting, but it gets tricky.
But that Paul stuff is rough for those who believe in the infallibility of scripture. It sure sounds to me like he's saying there was a literal Adam. (Of course it also sounds like he's saying that everyone is saved.)
Remember, though, that Paul is a Jew. (Moreover, a first century Jew.) Jews have a different way of thinking about stuff like this, and their own special rules for how to construct valid arguments. I don't know if this there's anything to this, but the Adam/Christ comparison sounds a lot like Matthew's OT "prophecies" to me. So maybe the point isn't that Jesus fixed what Adam broke, but just that there are parallels between Jesus and the OT.
Personally I suspect Paul did believe in the existence of a literal Adam (or at least, didn't disbelieve in it, if you buy the argument that people of his day didn't care about historicity in the same way we do). What reason would he have to doubt it? But for those who believe God wouldn't let a biblical author make that mistake, it's not outrageous to think that Paul simply wanted to draw a comparison between a Jesus and a well known story (which turned out not to be historically true). You'll recall that Jude does something similar.
"There are two basic Jewish ideas in light of which this passage must be read. There is the idea of solidarity. Jews never really thought of themselves as individuals but as part of a clan, a family or a nation, apart from wich the individual has no real existence... This is how Paul sees Adam. Adam was not an individual; he was one of all humanity, and because of this, the sin of one was the sin of all...
This idea was not strange to a Jew; it was the actual belief of the Jewish thinkers... Because of the idea of complete solidarity of humanity, all men and women literally sinned in Adam; and because it is the consequence of sin, death reigned over them all."
According the Barclay, what seems a strange argument today was a very good argument for Paul's listeners.
Barclay's commentary is excellent, and also deals with difficult passages about God's wrath and predestination. Barclay clearly adores Paul's writing; yet, he is willing to accuse Paul of making poor arguments (the potter and the clay bit, for example). You should borrow the book from me, I think you'd like it.
PS Barclay was a universalist; he really did believe that in the end All would be "made alive" in Christ.
One thing my study of the Bible at University has made clear to me is that the ancient Jewish worldview and logic was very different from ours.
[+/-] Camp is Good |
This last week was really good, on the whole. I was a counselor, but with senior campers this time, which is way easier and more fun. My campers were really cool, and I was more at ease than I've ever been as a counselor before. I screwed up a few things, but I was satisfied with my effort.
I really like it here. I'm becoming more aware of the centrality of community to Christianity (that is, being a disciple of Jesus). And I love community, and it's good for me. Often when I'm at camp I have a hard time remembering what my problem with Christianity is. Maybe if it could be like this all the time, I could really start to believe stuff (whatever "believe" means). Maybe my non-relationship with God wouldn't be much of a barrier. Or maybe even that would change.
I feel wistful.
I don't think a whole lot about my post-student life (I graduate this year), but sometimes it gets me really excited. I don't have a clue what I'm going to do next, but I think it could be awesome. I'm young and I currently have no desire to get married; my options are endless. I'll hopefully travel, as soon as I have some money and a place to go and maybe someone to go with. I could get a job that doesn't pay much but brings me joy. I could join a monastery. I could sell everything I have and give it to the poor. I could literally do that.
That's all I've got for now. Counseling is not very conducive to thinking about stuff. But I probably think too much anyway. (Too much or not enough? I'm never sure.) Maybe I'll write you something profound in a day or two.
[+/-] I Choose Love |
I didn't spend a lot of time on the discipleship thing this week. I was on maintenance, which is way more work than chore boying, because there's always another job that can be done. Harry Potter took up all my free time. This next week, by the way, I'll be counseling a teen camp. Prayers are appreciated.
So here's something that struck me recently. For some reason I got thinking about an episode of Adventures in Odyssey (a childrens' audio drama by Focus on the Family, which I listened to constantly as a kid). There's this one where a young guy's about to make the very great mistake of marrying a non-Christian, and the gravity of the situation is driven home by the sad story of his wise and elderly friend, who, it is revealed, had a non-Christian wife in his youth.
I think I'd always been told that Christians shouldn't marry non-Christians because their differing beliefs will be a barrier to intimacy and unity, strain the relationship, and cause disagreements about how the kids should be raised. Intriguingly, none of these concerns were addressed by the Odyssey episode. Instead, it emphasized the intense pain that Jack experienced on behalf of his dearly loved, deceased, and (as far as he knew) unsaved wife, who in all probability was already burning in hell.
It struck me that the implicit message here is, don't love non-Christians too much. Don't care too much about them. Don't feel for them too much of what God feels. Don't understand too deeply their immeasurable, inherent value, because if you do, and they die unsaved, you will see too clearly the incomparable tragedy and horror of hell, and it will break you.
This brings to light a very serious problem with (a certain kind of) Christianity: it both demands that we believe the majority of humanity will suffer eternally, and exhorts us to love others to the greatest degree of which we are capable. If we do both these things well, we are setting ourselves up for unparalleled and (I suspect) utterly crippling, destructive sorrow.
Immediately I can see two (and only two) solutions to this problem. Either we must refuse to believe in hell, or we must moderate our love. I choose not to believe in hell. (This is a more popular solution than you might think - many Christians claim to believe in hell but in reality do not, because they do not permit themselves to think about what they "believe", or allow it to affect their actions.) Focus on the Family (implicitly) recommends the other solution - that we not allow ourselves to care too deeply for those whom we believe will suffer eternally.
I choose to love, therefore I cannot believe in hell. I don't mean to say that I love greatly - if you are underwhelmed with my love, I assure you I am as well - but I love enough that I recoil from the idea of hell. I cannot accept it. Others may have stronger hearts, which can love more deeply before hell crushes them, but I don't believe any heart could survive loving to its utmost ability and believing in hell.
You can call me weak, or cowardly, or naive. I suppose I'm all of those things. But whatever my failings I want, more than anything, to love. I will pursue this zealously. And if my religion hinders me, I know what must be done. I will not be moderate. I will not make compromises.
I choose love, and for this I will not apologize.
10 comments:
R: I do feel a little bit like I'm using empty phrases, or talking about things I don't understand (what do I know about heartbreak?) but the kind of heartbreak I'm thinking of is the kind that, among other things, burns you out and makes you unable to continue loving people. Do you think we're meant to experience this?
You may be thinking of the bit in Romans 9 where Paul says "I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel." I didn't remember it when I wrote this, but it's quite applicable. Man, what a thing to say. Paul was hardcore.
I think that it is plain from the scriptures that for those who choose not to believe in him he puts them out of thier misery (Rom 6:23, Rev 20:15) but I guess that dependson how you interpret the text.
Judgement is simply that moment when the sinner realises that God is real, Jesus is real and that they Got it all wrong. In that moment they are consumed by the purity of Christ, overwhelmed by his power and majesty and simply cast out into a darkeness and cease to exsist.
And yes I think God greives for the wasted life half lived chasing petty fancies or causing all kinds of grief and sorrow in the pursuit of personal wealth, power and prestige.
The stupid thing is that many Christians live like that too; I think I might be one of them. I wonder what God thinks of that?
I know what I think of it.
Given the shortage of verses in the Bible declaring hell to be "eternal"and "torture" (there are about 4 of each, and are often debatable) and the preponderance of verses suggesting hell is "destruction", "the wicked will be no more" etc etc etc...
It really shocks me how violently resistant evangelicals are to theories of annihilation (which changes nothing about theology except the duration of suffering in hell) or eventual reconciliaton. Perhaps it's nothing more than the usual outcry against "heresy", however, I think I depict a sadistic tone in the arguments of some evangelicals, as if they WANT everyone else to burn for ever. This troubles me.
After all, if another theology is compatible BOTH with the majority of scripture, and the essential goodness of God, why should we reject it out of hand?
Now, that's all well and good but I"m still trying to figure out all the answers. At least it gave me a bit of peace for a little while.
I found your blog off rlp...keep up the good work.
--Clare
I don't know if you have read much Ayn Rand ( i don't recommend reading a lot if you haven't) but she believes that if two beliefs or realities appear to disagree that you should go back and check your premises.
I am one of those christians you mentioned that probably doesn't think too much about the ugly questions - like does Hell exist- because I am still trying to wrap my mind around all the simple lessons I learned in Sunday School.
All that said, I think there is a time when we will understand it all. I believe this time will be in heaven and all our questions will be answered.
That statement is trite and helps to push all the inconsistencies under the rug but I do believe- to an extent- that we cannot comprehend all the mysteries of God. I do think, however, that we should work ourselves trying to figure it out.
Maybe we'll get to heaven someday, and maybe then all our questions will be answered. But in the mean time there are more important things than believing all the right stuff.
[+/-] The Cost of Discipleship |
I'm trying to decide whether I can be a disciple of Jesus (that is to say, a Christian). I don't think I agree with him about everything. Can I be a real disciple and think he got a few things wrong? (I don't like the idea of Jesus being fallible, but if I'm honest with myself, I guess that's what I believe.)
Which things do I think he got wrong, you say? I couldn't tell you off the top of my head. But I plan to look through the all the red text in my Bible this week and see if there's anything I really can't agree with. If I can pry myself away from Harry Potter.
I've been reading The Cost Of Discipleship. Bonhoeffer says that you can't have faith without obedience, nor obedience without faith. There's a brand of Christianity, which seems particularly popular in camp ministries, that emphasizes "faith" at the expense of obedience (this is what James denounces). Conversely, I'd rather practice obedience without faith. I would be content just to be obedient to Jesus (or just to try to be) but maybe obedience sans faith isn't true obedience. (Because faith makes obedience possible, or because believing is part of obeying?) So I'm trying to figure out whether I agree with Bonhoeffer, and if so, whether I'm capable of true obedience, or just a faithless facsimile.
Bonhoeffer complicates things by saying that we cannot choose to be disciples out of the blue; we must be called. I don't know what he means by "called" (it sounds very Kierkegaardian*) but it seems that (as with all spiritual experiences I'm supposed to have had) either I've failed to recognize God's call to me (how? and what do I do to correct this?) or I've not been called at all. Or maybe my conviction that I ought to pursue a life of servanthood and selflessness constitutes the call, but then why would Bonhoeffer make a big deal about the impossibility of obedience without a calling? Who tries to be a disciple without this conviction? I don't know. Anyone understand Bonhoeffer?
*Kierkegaard says that we each choose one of three life-governing principles: desire, reason, or faith. But the last is only open to those who have been called by God to do something crazy, like Abraham sacrificing Isaac. If you want to choose faith but you haven't been called, you're basically hooped. Similarly, Bonhoeffer seems to be saying that you can't possibly be a disciple of Christ if he hasn't called you (because of our sinfulness and inadequacy) although what the call looks like and how prevalent it is is unclear.
13 comments:
Can I be a real disciple and think he got a few things wrong?
Personally, I think Jesus got this wrong: "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom," (Matthew 16:28) assuming he is referring to his second coming. But maybe he wasn't. Elsewhere he says, "But about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father," (Mark 13:32) which argues against his making predictions about the day or hour. But then, if he didn't know, is is any less fallible?
That should be, is he any less fallible?
Perhaps that's being intellectually dishonest? I dunno.
Any time that we think we see some discrepency in the character of God or the integrity of His statements it is a much better idea to calculate on the basis of our not fully understanding than to fault God. We have been promised that we will give account to Him for every thought word and action when all is said and done!
I am convinced that we have a view of God that is far too small. We have humanized God, thus in our minds lowered Him to our level or raised ourselves to be His equals.
Lucifer got thrown out of heaven for such thinking!
Dr. DEE
Of course it had some flaw that made it suck. You go into things thinking they'll suck Joel, so you can blog about it. Lol.
Whatever, dumb. Laters.
Anyway, I guess it would be more accurate to say I'm debating the fallibility of Jesus as understood by me, through the representations of him in the Bible. I'm not all that interested in the real Jesus that lived 2000 years ago. I can't know anything about him, and hence I cannot be his disciple. I have no interest in the infallibility of the real God - about whom I know nothing - only the infallibility of the Gods (that is, the concepts of God) to which I have access.
But that's a bit misleading... what I'm really talking about here is determining whether I agree with Jesus (the Jesus I know). As you rightly note, I am not infallible, thus if Jesus (tJIk) disagrees with me, it doesn't necessarily mean he's fallible. What it does mean, I think, is that I believe he's fallible. But I think I can believe he's fallible without believing that I'm necessarily right. If that makes sense.
To brucea, I suppose one could argue that the Apostle John saw the 2nd coming (albeit in a vision).
"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images."
Interesting idea about the second coming thing. That's just the kind of thing He'd do.
In regards to your creationism comment, I agree completely. Had I gotten a job with a Christian school, I would have had to deal with this. I'm kind of glad I didn't get it.
What I think Matthew was trying to show with all his references to prophecy was that Jesus' life paralleled the entire Old Testament. The same idea is developed a bit further in Hebrews 8-9: The Jerusalem temple is a "sketch and shadow" (Heb 8:5) of the heavenly one from which Jesus reigns.
If "prophecy" is understood as "parallel" or "foreshadowing," it makes sense to apply any verse to Jesus, regardless of its original context. I think that's what Matthew was doing.
[+/-] Just Briefly |
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
In other news, this last week was kind of difficult. The work was good, I enjoyed myself, but I felt very much at odds with the other staff. The speaker said a lot of things I thought he shouldn't have, and it made me wonder what I was doing there. Why do I invest so much of my time and energy in things I don't really believe in?
That's all I have for you.
6 comments:
Sucks you were at odds with other staff. Was it over theological stuff or did you just not get along?
If the stuff the speaker said was standard Christian theology that you don't agree with (ie faith in Jesus is the only way to heaven) you're probably stuck. If he said something that was contrary to your understanding of the Bible, or harmful/misleading to the kids in some way, you can call him on it.
Forgive me if I was wrong. but you were doing maintanance-type work, no? In that case agreeing with what is said or taught is probably not necessary to do a good job. If you feel you're so opposed to what is being said that you no longer want to support the camp, go elsewhere, lots of people would appreciate your help I'm sure. If all else fails you can always get paid work at a regular worksite.
The speaker's theme was creation, and he talked a bit about Young Earth stuff, which really bugged me. I don't care if people believe in that stuff, but I don't think it's the kind of thing we should be pushing at camp. At least, if people ARE pushing that at camp, I'd prefer not to be a part of it.
So yes, I'm considering whether I want to be involved in these ministries in the future.
[+/-] It Really Does Say That |
If, in casual conversation with a certain sort of Christian, you said something like, "I think a person is justified by what he does, and not by faith alone", you might be called a heretic.
If you said, "I think the Bible says a person is justified by what he does, and not by faith alone", you might encounter surprise, incredulity, and even annoyance.
And if you said, "James 2:24 says 'a person is justified by what he does, and not by faith alone'", you might be treated to a long and nuanced hermeneutical discourse, to the effect that the passage does not in fact say anything like what it appears to say.
But if you suggested to that same person that passages dealing with homosexuality, or women's roles, or the origin of humanity don't say what they appear to say, you might be accused of twisting the Word of God to fit your own agenda. This strikes me as inconsistant.
15 comments:
In conclusion the Bible is confusing.
I've been reading your blog for about 2 or 3 months now, after finding it by accident while searching for some answers.
I find myself on a journey as well, much like yours.
I've come to accept in many ways that the Bible is indeed the "inspired Word of God." But not like most evangelicals. Instead I see it as something that has been transcribed, transliterated, translated, interpreted and hacked to bits a thousand times before it gets to you. There's so much depth to it, historical, cultural and linguistic that almost make it impossible to carry over to the English language (any latin or Germanic languages in fact) because our language is a more technical one that Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic etc.
There are too many contradictions within the Christian Bible, and even within the Christian Faith, yet I still believe. Maybe not entirely in the God of the evangelical, but something like it.
But I really don't know what or whom I worship. I just feel it...know it. Like you say, it's a Journey. I'll probably never know the answers...maybe I don't want to. Maybe God reveals himself differently to different people. To hard-ass conservatives and bleeding-heart liberals and everything in between and outside. He is after all what we're supposedly based on, and supposedly omnipotent, and supposedly omniscient...
One thing I do know, regardless of everything written: there's something spiritual here. You feel it most in creation (evolved or not, I'm open however God did things), but it's there. And it wants peace...Shalom, completeness, peace and wellbeing.
Thanks for sharing your feelings with us. It helps to know I'm not the only one searching.
A "certain kind of Christian" loves to quote Mathhew 25:41 as THE definite proof text for fate of those who do not accept Jesus as their savior... “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels".
This "certain kind of Christian" never seems to read the rest of the chapter in which Jesus explains the reason for their damnnation, and the salvation of others. In this story at least ,it's all about works, specifically helping the less fortunate. Maybe James remembered that story...
but let's not get confused, the inconsistency is on the part of the "certain sort of Christian", not the Bible.
I think James point is most succinctly comprehended in verse 18 (of that chapter). And true enough, for most of us, living faith will produce works. But take it slowly, please. I've watched my works grow up, convolute, and ultimately be fruitless in any instance which I have knowledge, so I am left to hope that works I was unable to monitor may have fared better, an unenviable position. Take it for what it's worth.
I think the point James is driving at is that living faith will produce works, that these works are the evidence of that saving faith, not that the works themselves are in any way earning salvation.
I would be interested to see where you see any "passages dealing with homosexuality, or women's roles, or the origin of humanity.." that "don't say what they appear to say". I guess the volatility of that relies on what you think they do say...
But then again, I have said "I" to often in this, this is about you, or truth, or almost anything but me... I still wonder what your thinking though.
I maintain that James is saying something stronger than "for most of us, living faith will produce works" - or at the least, that he so strongly appears to be saying something stronger that we would all assume this was his intention, were it not for the fact that his letter is included in the Bible, which we all know presents a unified, faith-not-works message of salvation.
I wasn't thinking of any passages (or even any issues) in particular when I suggested that we be open to interpretations that differ significantly from a passage's apparent meaning, but if you want an example, here's is my (amateur, little-researched and hastily written) alternative reading of that famous bit of Romans 1 which seems to condemn homosexuality.
As I said above, I'm open to the possibility that the Biblical authors were not all in agreement about what was needed for salvation (although it's pretty scary, if you think about it) but for my money, this seems to be the best hope of reconciling them.
This is worlds away from saying we are saved by works (although it seems to be saying it's both, at first blush). If you read it twenty times a day and make it your meditation I'll bet (and I never bet) you'll soon agree whats being said here is the faith that saves is evidenced in works. hence faith that is not dead (living faith as I'm calling it) always produces works. But it's the faith given of G_d, the Bible insists elsewhere, that saves, one would imagine this sort to be of the living variety I suppose, not the vain imaginative sort some conjure up to ease their own troubled consciences.
So James is at odds with those who claim faith, but do not evidence it, saying that the "faith" they have is dead.
This sort of scrutiny really begs the original languages though, and ought to be done in Greek (which I can't, I go as far as interlinear translations, but alas, no Greek), really, translations are as good as they can be, but nothing like the original. Even then our understandings of the nuance of Language has changed (more so for the Hebrew, than Greek or Aramaic) so proceed slowly.
Oh, lets stop for a breath of air too. This is a worthwhile discussion, but that faith Lu:18:17: (Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.) is not sifting the fine nuances between translators or weighing the early letters against each other, it's believing G_d. From Abraham to the Roman who accepted Christ's word that his son would live and inquired no further, to Peter stepping out upon the sea, it's just plain believing. And this sort of faith is easy to spot; it's busy evidencing itself in works, everywhere.
And no, you cannot make your self a disciple, you must be called. However you may be called to be one and yet harbor all sorts of confusion, unclearneses and (ahem) unbelief. consider Thomas.
One thing I know, if you think He got it wrong, you got it wrong, go back and try again.
How can you tell if your called? (Sounds like you are to me, but few are chosen) well, I don't recommend it, but you could try to resist it, and if you find it impossible, then your called. (irresistible grace, they call that).
Perhaps intensive Bible study in the original languages could clear this up, but I somehow doubt it. Anyway, if we agree that the Bible makes no allowance for faith without works, I'm quite content to leave the metaphysical chicken-or-egg questions to Theologians.
I find it interesting that you see faith as the subject of Luke 18:17. (Pity you didn't bring this up a few months ago - you might have won a million dollars.) Tell me more about "this sort of faith". You've told me the kind of actions it inspires, but tell me about its content, how one comes to possess it, and (this is important) how it differs - if at all - from blind faith (the sort that inspires suicide bombings, crusades, and child sacrifices).
Everyone misuses the word "know". To clarify, you firmly believe that if I think the Bible (which is not necessarily the same thing as God) got it wrong, then I got it wrong. Unfortunately, your firm belief, without sufficient support, is of very little use to me.
So the calling is irresistible, is it? That's a whole can of worms I wasn't expecting to bust open. I suppose if I have no real say in the matter, then it doesn't much matter whether I realize I'm called or not.
The answer is hidden in plain sight (as it were) we've head (perhaps given it) it a hundred times.
Ac:16:31: And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Now, don't roll your eyes so fast, look @ what it says, not what it's come to say to us (as an elementary quote used in the first steps of "evangelizing" one's completely heathen brother), it's saying believe on Jesus (no shortage of people who mostly disagree but all claim that, while insisting the other actually doesn't). But the kind of "Belief" we have in view here is more than just saying such a man was, or is, or even taking the Bible's account of miracles on "faith" (so to speak), Or saying it seems that he is the son of G_d, such a faith manifests like this: Joh:20:28: And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. This "Belief" is none other than that transcendent (of human understanding) saving faith. Viewed so, it's not elementary evangelism, (although it is really) it seems a different matter (because it's been so universally overlooked in it's depth).
Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
Now putting aside the faith works thing as academic is OK for the moment (but wouldn't the nature of such a great salvation be of abiding interest?), there's another side to Eph 2:8, it's telling you clearly that saving faith is not in our selfs but G_d given, actually it's saying were spared by the grace of G_d, through faith (the faith existing on our side of the equation, (but as an imparted gift, not some faith we mustered in our own selfs). This squares nicely with the idea of election as well, but we don't have to slog through that now...
You recall the man who said (paraphrasing here) Lord, I believe, help thou mu unbelief.." Saving faith comes from G_d, and it's entirely appropriate to desire it of him in prayer.
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"how it differs - if at all - from blind faith (the sort that inspires suicide bombings, crusades, and child sacrifices)."
I know this is a harder answer than is popular, but give it some consideration;
How dose wheat differ from a tare? well, when they mature the difference is obvious, only the wheat produces a grain, but their darn hard to differentiate before that.
When Samson leaned against the columns, "bringing down the house" and "killing more Philistines in his death than in his life", was he being a suicide "bomber"?
Were Ezra and Nehemiah crusaders?
Was Abraham intent on child sacrifice, no matter how abhorrent it seemed to him?
It differs as the real does from the counterfeit.
If the counterfeit is average, there's notable difference.
If the counterfeit is impeccable, then it differs only in the fact that it's genuine, not counterfeit.
One parabolic view of genuine faith verses the other sort in scripture is 1Ki:18:21~39, read it as a parable, and think about it.
I was actually thinking of Abraham when I mentioned child sacrifice, but maybe the Biblical crusaders and terrorists are better examples (since we don't have to argue about whether there's an ethical difference between intending to sacrifice your child and actually sacrificing him). Your answer is unhelpful to me, but maybe that's not your fault.
Every book in the Bible has an agenda, an audience in mind and its own cultural baggage. In the midst of all this is God and he speaking but I have discovered that his voice is not always obvious.
I think it is reasonable to start with 'belief' and to seek 'faith'. I see belief as an interlectual understanding; faith is where that belief moves from the head to the heart. Obedience is the path from one to the other.
[+/-] What Bugged Me About Junior Camp |
First of all, thank you to all who though of me, prayed for me, or left me encouragements or advice over the past week. The camp went relatively well, I thought. At least, I was satisfied with the effort I turned in.
The thing about junior campers (and my cabin was the most junior of all) is that they tend to be both incapable and uninterested in discussing spiritual matters in any great depth. It's a little bit discouraging to put so much energy into a week with no discernible results, but the whole thing went about as well as I could have hoped.
The one thing that I found difficult that week was talking to kids about "the Gospel" - a concept with which I've become so disenchanted that I have difficulty speaking of it without the aid of quote marks. On the one hand, I think that making a one-time decision to identify with Christianity, to ask God to forgive all your sins, and so forth, can be a meaningful - perhaps even life-altering - experience. But on the other hand, I think it's a little dishonest for me to encourage a nine-year-old to make this ostensibly eternal decision merely in the hopes that it will be "a positive experience for them". For that matter, I'm not sure how I feel about anyone prodding kids this age to "accept" Jesus. If I really wanted to, I could make most of them accept just about anything. Who are we trying to kid?
I feel a lot better about evangelizing senior campers, because they're somewhat more capable of making an rational decision. Curiously, it seems that the pray-to-accept-Jesus bit gets a lot more play at junior camps than senior camps. I wonder why that is. I hope it's not just because they're easy targets.
It wasn't a bad week, on the whole. But I don't think I'll be counseling another junior camp any time soon.
1 comment:
I had a kid "accept Jesus" this week. It was strange, but good. Like yourself, I'm hesitant to believe that a choice made at such a young age- by itself- must have eternal consequences, but I'm not sure it can hurt either. In my case, the kid comes from a difficult background with guardians who don't think much of
God, and I definitely believe it took courage to identify himself as a Christian, and to continue to apply himself as such (by reading the Bible, finding a church, and so on.)
Also, my kids were probably a bit older than yours, but they certainly did have the ability to discuss theological concept. I had an exceptional (as in, Bible taught and talkative) group of kids but I was amazed at the questions they had.
Even discussing the basic foundations of Christianity are helpful to kids, I think, who often know the buzzwords but have no clue what sin or salvation or Christ-likeness and so on really meant.
The "theme" for my cabin this week was the passage in Isaiah you linked to on your blog recently, where God challenges the Isrealites to have their actions their faith. Seemed to click with the kids. (Of course, if you have serious theological difficulties with the "basics" of Christianity this could present a problem for you.)
This comment is way too long and kind of pointless, but I'm glad jr. camp went ok, and I wish you sucess and peace of mind with older campers.
PS I would imagine that jr. camps get more "accept Jesus" time because staff assumes that older campers have already done so, or at least heard "the Gospel" so often that if they've resisted it until now a simple sermon won't make a difference.
[+/-] My Predicament |
I'll soon be a camp counselor again. That still feels weird. I'd sort of gotten used to the idea of never counseling again, or at least, not counseling any time soon. But somebody wanted me, so I decided to give it another shot. Counseling is something I do because it's challenging, not because I'm very good at it or particularly enjoy it. It tends to put me in curious spiritual predicaments.
There are times when I'm at camp that I feel very Christian. At times faith (or credulity) comes easier to me there, surrounded by dedicated, godly people, and doing overtly spiritual work. There are times at camp when it seems very reasonable to me that prayer would powerfully affect the physical world. There are times when God seems near - if not emotionally, then at least intellectually - and I wonder if I'm silly to be so skeptical during the other ten months.
But at other times (particularly when I'm counseling) camp is where I feel most strongly that there is no God. When I'm at the end of the rope, when I'm fed up and tired and don't know what to do, it's really difficult for me to believe that praying or trusting will somehow make the situation better. God never seems more distant than the times when I need him most.
This puts me in a bit of a predicament. I really believe that if I can keep my focus and maintain a positive attitude, I can be a good counselor. I believe that I sink or swim on the basis of my skill, my strength and dedication. But then I think, if I make this all about me and my abilities, then what the hell am I doing here? This is a ministry. It's about facilitating a connection between my kids and God (although I'm not sure what exactly that means, or if I've experienced it myself) and if I'm not relying on him to guide me and empower me, I'm probably just wasting everyone's time. And yet I can't help but believe that my success as a counselor (or anything else) is a result of my ability and preparation, and that no amount of prayer or trust can save me.
This worries me. A good counselor - an able counselor - shouldn't think this way. How did I get into this? The answer, I suppose is that the camp needed me, and trusted me (trusted my ability, I suppose), and I trusted their discernment. Maybe one of us trusted too much.
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.Where does that leave me? I want to do this right, but I can't make myself believe. Maybe I'm over-thinking this. I am what I am; all I can do is my best. And if He's all He's cracked up to be, I imagine He can work through or in spite of my modest abilities and meager faith.- James 1:5-8
7 comments:
Chances are you will meet kids that need EXACTLY what you offer (at least I did.) Kids that need to talk about dating, about the creation-evolution debate, about their discomfort with core christian doctrines, and what they want is not cookie-cutter evangelical answers... what they need is a counsellor who has been through the same struggles, who can have intelligent discussion without ramming anything down the kid's throat, and so on.
You have great knowledge and understanding of the Bible, of Christian beliefs and how they vary, or arguments non-Christians put forth, compassion and understanding for the non-Christian, and so on. These, too, are useful to a counsellor. Use your strengths.
Hope this helps. If not, well, most of counselling is babysitting and game-playing anyway.
As I read your post, I remembered something a friend told me not long ago when I was having a similar predicament about my "abilities." She told me that not only is God's grace enough for us if we "mess up" a certain situation--his grace is also sufficient for the other person or people involved. Which, really, this is common sense, but it gave me a great peace. And it's not to say, of course, that we should cease to hold up our own end of things under the pretense that "God's grace is enough," but if we "go with what we have" like the last commenter mentioned, God's grace will more than fill in any leftover holes.
Hope that encourages you.
Peace.
Ah heck, I see Filth-man has already said this and better. Go, have fun, and be yourself.
You are too smart for your own good! You make me think of 1Cor 1:26-30. You are trying to make faith logical, tangible and explainable. To say such does not mean that faith is illogical or unreal, but according to God’s own explanation, it is “foolishness” to the person who has not come to the place of truly and personally needing God. Are you at a place in your life where you need God? God will not “play second fiddle” to anyone. He is not a crutch. His solution is not a bandage. He designed us to need Him. He made us with the ability to choose or reject Him, because choice without an option is not a choice at all. But He will not settle for a second hand relationship.
It is a little like a flashlight designed to operate on batteries. It might be the most unique and carefully designed unit but with no batteries it will not serve the designer’s intended purpose. Until you and I come to the point where we need God we will not even find Him. His answer is not merely a moral renovation. He knows that without His being the source of the needed power we are helpless in our hopelessness. He offers to take the controls and be the power to be what we were designed to be.
We because of our unique ability of choice we like to be our own boss. We don’t like to take orders from anyone unless it seems to suit our own purposes. But we all have seen that person who keeps doing the wrong thing making the same stupid decisions hoping to get different results next time. Yet we refuse to turn over the control of our life to God. We think somehow that we can figure things out better than our Designer could! We have believed the same old lie that the serpent invented for Adam and Eve. He has promised us that we can be “gods” if we do it our own way. And we have become gods in our own eyes at any point we think we can do life without God.
The surrender of life to the plan of our Designer will mean letting go of the sense of independence that allows a freedom to do the forbidden, the sensational, immoral or other self centered choices. Jesus referred to it in His statement, “If anyone will come after Me let him take up his cross and follow me.” Paul the apostle discusses the topic at length. If you want a deep book on this matter check out “Born Crucified by LE Maxwell” (Mr. Maxwell was my Bible Teacher in College, he is now in glory) The book is available on line at http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/borncrucified/index.html
I long to see you find your way through all this – I am praying for you.
“Dr.DEE”
Basically, in my mind, this is a simple decision. You're a wicked individual Joel. Your decision should hinge on whether or not your ideas of God are going to fuck some kid up in the future. I already know someone is going to take this serious, and tell me I'm a douche. Anyways, if you think you're going to cause a kid to be burdened his whole life (Like you) with the issue of God, don't go. Otherwise, as Jens says "Most of it is just babysitting and playing games anyway".
Well I just deleted my whole "I am very smart and listen to my great advice" post. I decided I was using to many words to say this:
Camp is for kids to have fun. Can you have fun? If so you will be a good counselor.
Oh yeah and if a kid has a question about God, you will be fine. Trust me a ten year old does not have your level of thinking. Maybe when they are teenagers and their abstract reasoning kicks in it might be a little tougher. Just show them a way to think critically and honestly, and you will be fine.
But don't over think it (she says to a philosophy major). The little children are not as conflicted as you think, they just like the girl/boy next to them. Tell them not to have sex and everything will be fine :)
[+/-] Other Religions: A Conclusion |
Devoted readers may remember that one of my projects for this last year was looking into other religions. I had two goals: to better understand what attracts people to different religions, and to see if there was anything out there that suited me better than Christianity.
The answer to the second question, at this point, is no. I didn't do a great amount of attending services and whatnot, but I talked to a few people and took a couple classes and nothing leaped out at me.
Buddhism was the most appealing. I attended a couple of classes with a local Buddhist group and appreciated their practical focus and easygoing attitude. I like how Buddhism adapts to the needs of specific cultures, and its recognition that people are on different journeys, and what works for some people doesn't work for others. Regrettably, I found meditation extremely difficult and entirely ineffective. Perhaps I can be a Buddhist in my next life.
Judaism was very interesting, but also not my cup of tea. I doesn't help that many of my greatest difficulties with Christianity stem from the Hebrew Scriptures. Also, Jewish services are conducted largely in Hebrew, which I'm not particularly interested in learning.
I didn't look too deeply into Islam, but I learned three things that turned me off: Islam in general takes a very fundamentalist view of scripture, the Qur'an focuses on Hell much more than the Bible, and Islam is essentially political. It could never work out between us.
So the bad news is I haven't found anything I can really, whole-heartedly belong to. The good news is I'm becoming increasingly comfortable with who I am. I don't feel the need to fit into any specific category. I don't need to be a Christian or a Muslim or an Atheist or whatever. There are things about Christianity that resonate with me, and things that don't. There are aspects of other religions or worldviews or philosophies that seem meaningful or true to me, and I want to incorporate them into my beliefs and practices. I suppose I'm a Christian in the sense that I'm a member of a Christian community, and Jesus is probably the central figure in my worldview, but I don't have a desire to impose any specific boundaries around my spiritual or intellectual or moral life. I'm a pilgrim.
5 comments:
I have been a little hesitant to check into other religions myself, for fear that I may actually find something very appealing. (and out of laziness) Because of this, I admire your struggle in quest for belief, and a place that you can wholly fit.
I think though that becoming more comfortable with oneself lies actually in opposition to knowing oneself. Much of the early church leadership and scholars believed in a 'dark night of the soul' in which a person really gained a sense of who he was, and arrived at a deeper sense of purpose and clarity in belief. I think that your search for meaning will lead you along the right paths.
[+/-] I'm Not A Disciple |
I've recently begun thinking of myself as a disciple of Christ. I believe that Jesus called his followers not primarily to a belief system or a religion or a series of rituals, but to a lifestyle modeled after his own life and teachings.
The word "disciple", as I've said before, is not one that I'm entirely comfortable with. But I console myself that the original 12 were not spiritual supermen. At least, not initially. If a group of misguided, half-hearted, faithless, gutless, selfish outcasts can be disciples of Jesus, I figured maybe I'd fit right in.
But I was writing out Matthew 7 the other day (which gives you an idea of how slowly my project is going) and stumbled across the famous story of the wise and foolish builders:
This is the conclusion to the longest - and probably the most challenging - sermon recorded in the Bible. First Jesus says blessed are the meek and the mourners, and lust is as bad as adultery, and turn the other cheek, and love your enemies, and don't worry about where your next meal is coming from, and ask and it will be given, and (my personal favorite) be perfect, like God. Then he says, in effect, "follow my teaching, or you're headed for destruction". No wonder people were amazed."Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. ... But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand."-Matt 7:24,26
I suddenly remembered that discipleship is serious business. You don't call yourself someone's disciple because you respect them, or you agree with them on certain points. A disciple is someone who is whole-heartedly committed to imitating and obeying his master. There are no part-time disciples.
Honestly, I don't agree with everything Jesus said. I agree with him more than most people in the Bible, but I'd be lying if I said I even wanted to submit to everything he taught. So I probably shouldn't call myself his disciple. At least, not yet.
2 comments:
[+/-] Lukewarm |
I'm sorry for not posting in a while. I've been feeling lazy and brain-tired. My scribing project is going slowly. Anyway, here's my most recent interesting thought:
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.We looked at this passage in church last week. It's pretty tough stuff - "scary" is how someone put it - and it got me thinking about all the times in the Bible when God tells someone they suck. The prophets do a lot of that. Jesus spends a whole chapter railing on the Pharisees. There's the "Away from me evildoers" bit, and so on.-Revelation 3:15-18
Here's what I noticed: I can't think of a time in the Bible when God rebukes people who are already aware of/feeling bad about their failings. I think the Laodiceans' real problem wasn't that they were "wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked"; God has a solution for that. Their problem was that they didn't realize that they were wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. They thought they were pretty good. Honestly, I'm not sure what is meant by "buy from me gold refined in the fire", etc. It seems that "wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked" is not the universal human condition, and that God expects us to transcend it, with his help. But I don't know how that works.
Anyway, it's comforting to think that God isn't angry with me for my wretchedness, and although he wants to see me cleaned up, he doesn't expect me to do it myself.
11 comments:
I am lukewarm.
There is another script that I am reminded of when I read of the church at Laodicea:
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God -- having a form of Godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
When I read this passage I am amazed at how this so resembles our culture and our age. Laodicia and I and the western Church identify with this. We have a form of Godliness but are denying the power of God. I may have overstepped my authority in blanketing that statement over the entire Western church, but I can speak on my own behalf. I know the basic tenants of Christianity, I know what it means to look and act like a Christian in our culture and yet I have not seen the transformitive, revolutionary power of the living God within me. Or the glimpses of such power I have seen have not satisfied.
I am lukewarm.
God says that he would rather have us cold or hot than lukewarm. Cold becuase like the prostitutes, the sinners, the subaltern, the losers of society we would know just what we were and how much we needed a change. The hot because we would have Godliness and some serious power of Christ indwelling us, and would be able to live a remarkable and focused earthly existence.
Now take that cold and hot may be both parts of a believer's life. But my question is what about the inbetween? If a spiritual journey is designed to go from cold to hot, will I not by necessity become lukewarm? And what of me then, having some resemblance to real Christianity, but still holding back the floodgates of love and power.
I imagine the Laodicea prophesy would apply to most cultures in most days to some extend... certainly in both 1st and 3rd world Christians today.
Michigan, I would gather from the rest of Jesus' teachings that knowledge that one sucks tends to lead to humility, repentance, and reliance on God for improvements.. this is what Jesus wants, I think.
But I've heard the other interpretation too. I'm not sure which is "right", but both messages are worth pondering.
I agree that God doesn't just want us to realize we suck, but then to realize our need for him to make us better. I'm not exactly sure how that works, but the passage certainly suggests that God expects us to become better, with his help.
Unfortunately, this is a passage in Revelation, and, ipso facto, is enigmatic and heavy on metaphor. I guess we'll have to wait for the inevitable LaHaye/Jenkins novelization to find out what John really meant.
"Lukewarm" refers to the church, for it is spiritualy poor (but materially rich). Misery is the trademark of the wealthy. They are "blind" because they don't see the need for evangelism, which makes them naked without Christ's Robe of Righteousness (Cor 5:21).
The Gold purchased from God is tried and tested faith (1 Peter 1:7) and the white clothes are the robe of righteousness (Isaiah 61:10). Gaining vision refers to the illumination of the saved (1 Cor 2:14)
Remember, these are not my words (well, they are, but I paraphrased his, they are not my ideas.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Van_Impe
[+/-] I'm Tired and I Hurt All Over |
I took a bit of a tumble on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs today. It was my first day of framing, and it was kind of long and quite grueling. I have a big post in the works, but it's only half-way thought through, and I'm not at all in the right frame of mind for that kind of thing. I fear I may not be my usual perspicacious self over the next couple months.
In other news, I'm finished the first five chapters of Matthew in my copy-the-New-Testament project. I've yet to go a full two pages without a scribal error, giving me new appreciation for those who carefully preserved these texts over the centuries. No profound insights yet, but so far the process has been considerably less tedious than expected. I would rather copy the Bible eleven hours a day than haul wood around, but I don't imagine I would make much money at it.
7 comments:
Dr.DEE
[+/-] Scrolls and Scribes |
The first time I saw a Torah scroll was in the special collections library at the University of Alberta. The scroll was beautiful. It was about three feet wide, made of parchment, and hand-written in ancient Hebrew, in strictly measured rows and columns. Like all Torah scrolls, it contained the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, and was written laboriously by a professional scribe over about a year. Like all scrolls, every line is the same length and contains the same words, and in every scroll there are precisely the same 304,805 Hebrew letters.
A new scroll will cost a synagogue something in the neighborhood of eighty thousand dollars. A synagogue's scroll is stored in an ark at the front, and every Sabbath it is taken out and carried up and down the aisles, and the congregants touch it with their prayer books, and then touch the books to their lips. The synagogues keep their scrolls in a beautiful fabric case, and decorate them with ornamental breastplates and crowns. I later learned that the University's scroll originated in what is now the Czech Republic, and is centuries old.
I felt a kind of awe when I saw this scroll for the first time. To be within a couple feet of something so old, so beloved and sacred, is quite an experience. Traditional Jews believe that the Torah was verbally inspired, word for word, to Moses on Mt. Sinai. They believe it was written at that time in the same form and the exact Hebrew letters and words in which it is now preserved, that the scroll I saw was a perfect preservation of the very words of Almighty G-d.
I've thought since then about the 17th century Czech scribe who wrote that scroll, and many others identical to it, one each year throughout his adult life. It's a very prestigious job, a high calling, but it must also be extraordinarily boring - a monotonous and meticulous process of copying 300,000 letters one by one, with exactly the right calligraphic flourishes.
I mentioned the scrolls and the scribes to a friend recently, and she decided she wants to write out the whole Old Testament by hand. I thought it was a great idea, but I doubt I have the patience to get through even the first five books. A good chunk of the Old Testament is unspeakably boring. But the New Testament might be manageable.
So on Thursday I bought a book with a black cover and thick, blank pages, and on Friday I bought two good pens. I won't follow the any of the strict rules of the Jewish scribes and I won't try to wrest my scrawl into an elegant script, but I will attempt to copy neatly and accurately the whole text of the NIV New Testament by hand.
I decided to do this for a number of reasons. For one thing, I hope it will help me develop patience and perseverance. I also hope that it will force me to read carefully through the text and not rush past the parts that don't interest me, or that I just don't like. I imagine it will be difficult for me to copy passages such as Romans 9, but maybe doing so will foster a sense of humility and reverence for the book. Maybe putting so much effort into the Bible will make it feel more meaningful or valuable or something. Or maybe I'll just get sick of it. I'll keep you posted.
5 comments:
Dr.DEE
I applaud your effort as well, it's an Invaluable aid to internalizing G_D's word (Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Ps 119:11).
If I had the opportunity to say one thing to anyone who set themselfs to do this I would say; remember what you are about to take up and handle, how Holy and special it is, each time, before you begin, recite John 1:1 to yourself, in fact write it in large letters on the wall across from you.
G_D smile on your endeavor.
It also occurs to me that, if I could say another thing, it would be; "..No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Lu 9:62).
But although I say this, I myself have not undertaken this task, and have looked back. Remember Lot's wife....
[+/-] The Jews and Their Book |
I took a Judaism class this semester. I hoped that a Jewish perspective would shed some light on some of my many confusions and frustrations with the Bible, and especially the Old Testament. I've felt for some time that Christians (of course I don't mean all Christians) have a tendency to ignore or distort the more troublesome aspects of the Old Testament by emphasizing the supremacy of the New. How do we deal with a God who punishes whole nations, and even their slaves, for the sins of their kings? For many of us, it is enough that he doesn't seem to do these things anymore, and that Jesus was a really nice, gentle guy. Surely the God who demonstrated such love and grace in the New Testament would not do anything cruel or unjust, so however cruel and unjust his old-covenant actions seem to be, they must really be motivated by compassion or righteousness or some other good, Jesus-y quality.
This doesn't do much for me.
I hoped that Judaism could offer me some insight into what the troubling parts of the Old Testament are really saying. As direct heirs of the patriarchs, the judges and the prophets, without the benefit of our "New and Improved" Testament, they must have some insight into the more vexing aspects of the Torah. That was my reasoning.
It turns out that modern Judaism has very little in common with its Biblical roots. The destruction of the Temple in the first century brought an abrupt end to the religion of Moses, in which animal sacrifice was central. Modern Jews of all persuasions have immense reverence for the Torah (Genesis through Deuteronomy) but in practice, it is not their most authoritative text. Judaism today is largely the product of the centuries of Rabbinical debates and commentaries that form the Talmud. It is understood that the various, often contradictory positions of the Rabbis are inspired by God, and that it is the Rabbis' responsibility to continuously reinterpret and adapt Judaism to meet the needs of their time, culture, and individual congregations. (The relative value of adaptation and tradition is the primary difference between Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox Judaism.)
I was disappointed to hear that even the strictest Orthodox Jews no longer hold to many of the things that bother me most about the Bible. It's not that I think they should, really. I like the idea of continuous revelation. I think you could make a strong Biblical case for it, and I think it's more honest to say that we no longer believe certain things God has said because he reveals new things to new generations than to claim that we still believe everything God has said, and then twist or ignore the parts that don't fit with our modern intuitions. (I don't mean to suggest a dichotomy. I think there are other possibilities, but the latter approach seems to be quite popular among Christians.)
I was disappointed because I want to find someone who really believes in the God who sent the plagues on egypt, or who orders rape victims to marry their attackers, or who punishes children for their father's sins, to the four generations and beyond. I want find a champion for this God - someone who can explain why he should be worshiped or loved or believed in, or else who can explain to my satisfaction how these passages don't say what they seem to say. I don't know if I could be convinced that passages such as these are God-breathed, infallible truth, but I want to give them a fair shot.
My Judaism Professor said that much of the Torah is embarrassing to modern Jews. They certainly don't believe, for example, that God still commands genocidal war against immoral nations, but it is still problematic that, according to their scriptures, he used to. Jews, like Christians, seem to have found no good solution to this problem.
22 comments:
You asked for .."someone who can explain why he should be worshiped or loved or believed in"..
I'll take a shot.
While all the struggling your doing to reconcile one aspect of G_D with another is something (I hope) we all can empathize with, you must remember; you just cant work out three dimensions in two.
As G_D introduced himself (to Moses), "I will be, what I will be."
This is the universe we live in and the only God there is. He is at once the God of tender mercies and compassion you love... and The God your so perplexed at, as to question whether they are even the same.
Was it the same Jesus who said .." It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.".. as met the Roman Centurion in the way and wondered at his faith being greater than (in) all Israel? Sure was.
At the end of the day, this is the God, one facet and the other, and many more known and unknown make a better portrait of him, many seem at odds with each other, but that is just reality.
We fear / love, worship / adore, and above all believe in G_D because he is, and is what he will be.
Now he has called us friends (beloved, allowed free thought, treated as equals... sort of), rather than servants (subjects who accept implicitly, because thats what subjects do). Can it be better than this?
Don't kill yourself questioning it all (do question, but don't kill yourself over the unresolvable). We see in part and know in part, but then....
you know the rest.
I recognize that God is utterly beyond me, that I cannot hope to understand him, and so forth. But I feel that we often use this as an excuse to avoid thinking about the more troubling aspects of the Bible's God. It's easy to brush these things off with "God's ways are not our ways", and I don't think that's very honest. At least, I know it would be dishonest for me.
True, "...we often use this as an excuse to avoid thinking about the more troubling aspects of the Bible's God." I don't mean to suggest this. Consideration of G_D's ways being unsearchable really only comes into play (it seems to me, if my understanding is indeed correct) at the end of our searching (prov. 25:2). There is so much we can know, and so much more we cannot (presently, at least 1Cor 13:12).
You know that much Biblical account (besides being history, and a number of other reasons) exists to form a "portrait" of G_D. When he is portrayed as a vengeful god of wrath and so forth, it's not so much a dichotomy, as a picture of one aspect of G_D. It's also not just 2000 b.c.e. stuff either, in places the last writings (1john 14:6 describe G_D as essentially love, while Heb 12:29 pains him as "a consuming fire". Both are the case, and not alone, but there is so much more....
I don't know if this will help, but what really worked for me in the question of "who is G_D (what is his character like), was to hear him in his own words address this..
Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah & Lamentations all deal with G_D describing and defending his character as a 2nd theme, to which the writing turns periodically between (the main thrust of their prophesy), and it's a theme woven through the minor prophets as well.
Really, there's little to compare with a good read through "the writings" (Major & minor prophets), except of course the Gospel and all that follows, but and understanding of this is foundational to that.
I guess I would say that the different portrayals of God in the Bible represent different people's understandings of him, based on their experiences. I certainly believe that different people will often have radically different understandings of God, and that God is complex enough that two seemingly contradictory understandings of Him could both be more or less true.
But some things in the Bible are so violently opposed to my understanding of God that I feel like it would be a betrayal of my God not to be horrified and repulsed by them.
God's ways are not our ways, and I guess at the end of the day we must admit that it's possible that God punishes children for their father's sins, and maybe he has a good and just reason to do so, even if this flies in the face of everything that I know or believe about justice. But since I personally don't believe that all parts of the Bible are necessarily good representations of God, there's another explanation that seems far better to me.
I definitely don't mean to suggest that all the diverse, and seemingly irreconcilable portraits of the Most High differ only on the part of the beholder, consider (even if you only can as an exercise) that all of these representations were given by JEHOVAH (I ought to pause here to note I'm using some of the myriad of names G_D uses for himself to underscore the myriad of self portraits he presents) toward the ends of at once building the "big picture", and indicating the unfathomably of G_D.
Men have wrestled with this since the beginning (Job 5:9, 26~), and you do show wisdom in you final analysis. But we can go a long way toward understanding what we realize we cannot ultimately fathom.
In researching this I found a page listing the names, and brief definitions. I think it makes an interesting reference http://www.ldolphin.org/Names.html.
consider the diversity of meanings in these names. What is the (get ready) "..high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy" (Isa 57:15) trying to say? Many things occur, but certainly that he is painting many pictures of his nature, which one would need to somehow reconcile or combine to get the "big picture".
Perhaps that's just it, "The LORD Who Heals" is resisting our attempt to build a comprehensive "big picture" because it would be fundamentally inaccurate (besides incomplete). G_D, to you, is after all, whom and how ever he pleases to be toward you.
A man may be a (for example) Judge. A description of who and how he is, not at all inconsistent with the truth would vary widely depending upon who you ask. To the innocent dependent he may be a friend in a time of great trouble, a deliver who dealt fairly with them (in finding them innocent). to a stray do he may be a warm heart with a hand out of some sandwich, a benefactor of sorts. To his friends he may be any number of things, but foremost a friend. To his insurance company, he may be a number. To his dry cleaner, a man with sweaty armpits. to his co workers he may be the curator of justice, who diligently and fairly divides the evidence, not respecting persons, or swayed much by speeches, exonerating the innocent, and condemning the guilty. to his wife, perhaps, a fool. to the prosecutor, or defense attorneys, a high hurdle, immune to their whiles, before whom the defendant must stand or fall according to the evidence. to his paper boy, a good, if inconsistent tipper. to his colleagues perhaps, uncomfortably accomplished. to his daughter, Daddy.
Which of these is right? he is what he is to the person involved.
I think maybe that's the reason for the inscrutability here.
There, I've exhausted myself. I apologize for my slightly less than coherent rambling, the hour, the little box I'm forced to type in, and my own lack of writing skill, combine to make me poorly written.
I have tried sincerely to speak to this topic though, and I encourage response or inquiry from any who desire, I've left an email address as a name, hopefully bot resistant. Thanks for receiving all this!
You make a good point about the transcendence of God and our inability to know or understand him to any great degree. I also agree that that the variety of portraits of God found in the Bible and elsewhere ought to challenge and expand our idea of him.
It is true that (as an analogy) a man may seem to be many different things to many different people. It may also be true no one has a reasonably accurate and comprehensive understanding of a given man, and that each of his acquaintances could gain a better understanding of him through interaction with others who experience him in a different role.
The only thing I'd like to add is that if one acquaintance believes the man to be the epitome of fair-mindedness and tolerance, and another believes him to be hate-filled, intolerant, and an active member of the KKK, one of these acquaintances must be mistaken.
Essentially, this is my problem with certain portions of the Bible: they describe a God whose character and commands are diametrically opposed to the most essential attributes of the God I believe in. I believe, for example, in a supremely loving, just, and merciful God, but many Biblical authors describe a God who is extraordinarily cruel , vindictive, and unjust. Unless my reading of the texts or my understanding of love, justice and mercy are greatly misguided, it seems to me that my understanding of God is irreconcilable with parts of the Bible.
The prophets are particularily fascinating, proclaiming God's anger in pretty colorful terms using graphic sexual imagery and all manner of violent language, but every once and a while they'll suddenly turn on a dime and express God's grace and love in incredible poetry.
I spent a lot of time reading the prophets trying to grasp an understanding of what the lives of these mouthpieces of God must have been like. Guys like Ezekiel basically commanded to perform avant-garde street theatre in the public square, or Hosea commanded to marry a prostitute. It flys in the face of a lot of the people held up to be prophets nowadays who are well-liked amongst their own people and held up and venerated.
That aside, I find myself just putting aside the bits of the OT I don't get, as intellectually dishonest as that perhaps is. I don't think of God as being like he's described at times in the OT where it reminds me of an abusive spouse (and I don't mean this flippantly - it's the only comparable thing I can find for the extremes of rage and tenderness) - 'Look what you're making me do! If you'd just listen, I wouldn't have to beat you! But if you come back, baby, it'll all be OK - I'll love you again, we'll get that house, and it'll all be good...'
I'm far from studied, but I wonder how much of it's cultural in the sense of the writers at the time giving their best understanding of God's behaviour or what they perceived his behaviour to be. If you're a strict literalist, I guess you're stuck with the dichotomy to resolve, but if you believe that the writer's brought some of their own bias and perspective to the text, then it's understandable somewhat in the culture of the day.
People back then (and sadly today) believed their god was responsible when they achieved victory. They believed the death of their enemies (legitimate or otherwise) was a blessing and expressed it that way in writing down the account of taking the land of Caanan or their exodus from Egypt. The gods of the time were capricious and given to shifts of moods.
Are some of the difficulties in the OT the result of immature theology (in the sense of developing, not being condescending)? Looking at the OT and on to the NT, it would seem either God was learning & changing, or our understanding of Him was developing. I'm not studied enough in this area to be able to say concretely, but this is the direction I currently lean.
If you want to find someone who really believes in, and thinks they understand, the more troubling parts of the Bible I suggest you talk to those dreaded Christian conservatives/fundamentalists. Lots of them know their Bibles extremely well, and they believe even the wierd parts to be important. (For example, I remember reading one commentary on the genocide in Joshua, who suggested using the Book of Joshua that a)the Caananites had long, long warning and knew they were supposed to leave and b) the vast majoriy of Caananites, presumably including women and children, ran away instead of being killed. Unfortunately, I don't remember the link.
Finally, while I also am troubled by the parts of the Bible that worry you, I think it's smart to remember that we live in a very peaceful, orderly society. Parts of our world are violent and brutal... In South Africa, for example, a large portion of the population hopes for a more severe government response to crime, including as much force as necesary. It's not hard to imagine a South African Christian finding comfort and hope in a warrior God that fights on their side and smites their enemies.
I will not continue to write a discourse on defending the unity of God throughout the Bible here on a blog post: it is the wrong medium for such a discussion. Get ahold of me in real life, and we'll discuss this face-to-face, if you'd like (see you tomorrow, Jake.).
First, I don't want to frame this as an issue of OT God verses NT God. It's true that the God I take issue with appears more frequently in the OT, but there are parts of the OT that I think are great, and parts of the NT that I find very problematic. Even Jesus says some weird stuff.
You're right that cultural influences cut both ways - if we invoke them to explain difficult scriptures, we must also admit that they affect our own beliefs. This I do freely. I'm not suggesting that my moral compass is more accurate than those of the Biblical authors (although it might be); I'm just saying that they seem to be wildly out of sync, and I don't know how to reconcile them.
HUH?!
what do you do with;
"Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel."(Eze:37:12)
they dicerned between phisical death and spiritual ongoing too:
"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD." (Psalms:115:17~18)
and resurrection:
"And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me." (Job:19:26~27)
You know, the best text on this is found in the New Testament where explanation is given:
"..the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection.." (Mt:22:23)
".. the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection.." (Mr 12:18)
"For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both." (Act 23:8)
Be careful who you listen to. Devout Jews even today hold the doctrine of resurrection, the idea of (spiritual) afterlife & so forth. Go ask the hasidem especially the hasid lubavitch. They will readily affirm their belief in these things (for all their outlandishness they are well studied, and can speak for a great portion of modern orthodox jewrey).
You've got to take this from where it comes, if your professor is teaching you "Jews say xxxx" remember, he can't possibly be speaking for more than a portion of Jews, there are simply too many doctrinal diversities to say "Jews believe %any one thing%".
I think you have a modern day Sadducee on the line there.
It should be said, somewhere along the way here; "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying.." (1Tm:1:4)
try not to be washed away in all this Jewishness. It can be an enlightening study, but their about as Jewish as Catholics are Christian. They've changed it all around, added and lessened things, until their doctrine is about as useful as cheese cloth (is) for a life raft.
Remember: "..I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie.." (Re:3:9) as well.
Eze 37 is a one time miraculous event, or (more likely) a vision, used as an illustration of the way the Israelites will be returned from exile.
Psalm 115 says that the dead do not praise the Lord, but "go down to silence"; rather it is we (those who are alive) who praise him.
Job 19 is the closest thing in the OT to an affirmation of a resurrection, but could also be taken another way: Job speaks in the singular, and in fact, his skin was pretty much destroyed, and by the end of the book, he does see (or at the least, hear) God. But if Job is referring to a resurrection, it is the only reference to this in 34 chapters of debate about suffering and God's justice. (And probably the only reference in the whole OT.) If the concept of a resurrection was at all prevalent at the time, you would think it would come up at least a couple times in this long-winded battle of the theodicies.
I'm aware of the Sadducees' position on the resurrection. They were a prominent post-OT Jewish movement and were well acquainted with the OT scriptures. I am also aware that modern Jews are a diverse bunch, that they have little in common with Bible-era Jews, and that the majority, though certainly not all, believe in some form of afterlife. (My prof affirmed all of these things.) The idea that OT Jews didn't believe in an afterlife is by no means exclusive to liberal, Jewish university professors; several knowledgeable Christians have also mentioned this to me.
I'm not in any danger of being washed away by "Jewishness". And it's no secret that Judaism has changed a good deal since the time of Moses or Jesus. But I don't mind telling you that I've met some Jews who are a good deal more Jewish than most Protestants are Christian. Useless doctrines and false religion are by no means exclusive to Catholics and Jews.
First of all, my understanding of the Old Testament is, like Jacob's, that there is no coherent philosophy of an afterlife. There are some hints (Daniel 12, for example) but when Jesus came along the idea of a conscious afterlife was still very much for debate.
For Lucid Elusion; if you have a schema/process/whatever for reconciling seemingly contradictory aspects of God's character as described by the Bible, I'd love to hear about it. If you continue to believe a blog is not the proper medium for such a discussion you can contact me another way.
Finally, the idea of "corporate responsibility" seems to be huge in the Old Testament; that is, people are judged (and rewarded or punished) as a family, group, culture, etc... (The people of Isreal, the Caananites, the Ninevites, etc...) this marks a radical change from the New Testament, where pleasing or uposetting God, as well as salvation or damnation, depend on each individual's response.
It almost seems like God has shifted his way of dealing with human beings; either that or, as David suggests, New Testament writers have a more evolved (more correct?) understanding of God's justice.
If anyone has either a good theological answer to what I see as a dichotomy, or perhaps an understanding of how ancient cultures viewed guilt or innocence (and what THEY would have seen as justice or injustice) I'd love to hear about it.
There are, I think, lingering elements of collective judgement in the NT (eg. Jesus proclaims doom - actually, degrees of doom, which is also kind of weird - on certain towns) but there certainly seems to be a shift towards individual accountability.
Off the top of my head, I can think of three explanations.
1. Those who highly value God's changelessness could deny that there is any significant shift. There are enough examples in both testaments of both personal and group judgment to make the argument that God has always - and will always - do both. (Of course, the fairness of collective judgment is another matter.)
2. It could be that the Jesus Event changed how people are judged. (It changed a lot of things.) There seems to have been something inherently corporate about the old covenant - it was made between God and a nation, and primarily concerned the laws, governance, and long-term success of that nation - whereas the new covenant is extremely personal (as our fundamentalist friends are fond of reminding us). This still doesn't explain why corporate judgment was necessary, or how exactly it's just, but maybe we can file these as "God knows best" mysteries.
3. The other explanation is that in a world which has little interest in individuality, is strongly nationalistic, cares more than anything about producing offspring, and lacks the concept of an afterlife, people noticed that they don't always get what they deserve and decided that judgment must come on later generations. When the concept of an afterlife gained popularity, it provided a more satisfying solution to the problem of earthly injustice.
do think that justice is culturally determined- to some degree. For example, if my dad lipped off to his teacher, he would get the cane, and this would be seen as a just consequence. If I caned a lippy student, I would be justifiably fired- justice determined by the changing culture. However, the concept of justice isn't so flexible that the killing of children is ok because of it's cultural context... can it?
In the end, I guess the whole Bible could be about collective judgement, and collective un-judgement... "As in Adam all die, in Christ all will be lifted up".
Intriguingly, there seems to be movement toward this point of view even within the OT. Jeremiah says that a day is coming in which "everyone will die [only] for his own sin". And Ezekiel (his late contemporary) emphatically declares that the day has come. (Actually, he seems to be saying that God has never punnished children for their fathers' sins. Maybe Zeke needs to bone up on his Pentateuch).
I found this interesting:
"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?" this after Exekiel/God explains the "new" concept of personal justice. Seems the people found it UNJUST that sons were no longer to be punished for their father's sins. "Will not the son share his father's guilt?" (paraphrasing...)
It's strange how even a concept like justice changes over time and culture... I still like our version best though.
[+/-] A Hole of a Different Shape |
The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
...So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman,'
for she was taken out of man."
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.-Gen 2:18-24
Something struck me today. The first couple chapters of the Bible describe God's "very good" creation, which included a man living in a very intimate relationship with God. God apparently had verbal conversations with Adam, gave him instructions, attended to his needs, and even walked in Adam's garden. This, according to the Bible, is paradise - the way God meant the world to be before the corruption of sin and death. But immediately (likely within minutes of Adam's creation, if you're a literalist) God senses that there's something missing.
"It is not good for the man to be alone."
In fact, Adam is not alone. God himself is near at hand - physically present. Few Biblical figures, and likely few people in history, have experienced anything like the kind of intimacy with God that Adam had. But it wasn't enough. Adam needed "a helper suitable for him."
I'm amazed by what this suggests about human fellowship. (It may also say something about gender roles, but I'll look past that for now.) I value my relationships, but I tend to think of them as a dim reflection of the relationship I hope to have with God. There may be some truth to this (particularly when human relationships are unhealthy) and I don't think friends or lovers were ever meant to fill my "God-shaped hole". But I think this passage suggests that there we also have "human companion-shaped holes" which even God Himself cannot adequately fill. That's pretty powerful statement about the importance of community.
10 comments:
"Dr. DEE"
On a side note, I'm not even sure that Jesus would be entirely comfortable to be around. He seemed to love messing with people's heads, and didn't hesitate to cut his disciples down to size.
The important thing is to desire and pursue until you achieve it. I have been married 27 years to the only girl I ever dated. The lack of experimenting with relationships or checking out the options before I made my choice has never made me think I was cheated. I have never sensed the need to flirt with others to keep my sense of attractiveness and fulfillment. At the age of 19 I gave my life to God starting a monogamous spiritual relationship. I have never felt that decision was in anyway a rip-off. With the deepest friendship a man could wish for on a human level and being allowed the equivalent or better on a spiritual level I have experienced the deepest admiration and awe for a wonderful, powerful, just, and all knowing God. I used to get a love letter from my sweetheart every week. I learned more about who she really was through her letters than I did in her presence. I used to read each letter over several times and think about what she was saying. I think the same is true of God. Though I enjoy a sense of His presence many times a day I learn who He is by reading and studying His letter (The Bible)
Dr.DEE
+Buy a dirt bike+ :)
But seriously, it is something that I myself have been through, I have loved 2 women of God, and yet here I am once again single, and wondering.
Well that is it for my rant of the day.
Until later.
-Son of Dr. DEE
I've more or less given up on my active pursuit of a relationship with God, because it got me nowhere and it hurt me far more than it helped me.
I won't get into the details, because I've written about this at length already. See posts labeled Seeking God. The top three will give you a good idea of where I'm at. Laura, I Love You will give you a taste of where I've come from.
[+/-] Fruit in Keeping With Repentance |
I've never been a huge fan of John the Baptist. I guess I've always envisioned him as a sort of first-century hellfire preacher - the sort of pulpit-pounding moralist who rails against miniskirts and alcohol and loud music. The kind who glares down at sinners and riffraff from beneath a furrowed brow, and yearns for the good old days when people wandered in the desert and wore camel-skins and were serious about God. You know the kind I mean.
John certainly sounds like a hard-ass. His slogan is "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near", which has a kind of a doomsday-prophet ring to it, and he greets the crowds who come to hear him preach as "You brood of vipers". He also warns that the Messiah will come and "burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire". Hard-ass.
Normally when I think of John I don't get much past the call for repentance and the "brood of vipers" line. But we get a glimpse into the content of his preaching (i.e. what he calls for repentance from and to) in Luke 3. John tears into the crowd for not "producing fruit in keeping with repentance", and the people ask him what exactly he wants them to do.
John answered, "The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same."
That's interesting. The crowds may have expected John to mention clothes and food, but he doesn't seize the opportunity to tell the them what kind of tunics they ought to wear (ankle-length, I would imagine, and preferably a coarse, itchy fabric) or which foods they shouldn't eat (the Jewish law is big on dietary restrictions, and John himself ate only locusts and honey). Instead he calls for compassion and charity. From this one comment, you'd almost get the idea that the coming kingdom is less about laws and purity and more about social justice. And it goes on.
Tax collectors also came to be baptized. "Teacher," they asked, "what should we do?"
"Don't collect any more than you are required to," he told them.
Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?"
He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely — be content with your pay."
I'm struck by the practicality of John's teaching. Ethical business practices. Justice. Honesty. Compassion. These are the fruits of repentance. John seems to have no interest in long lists of religious laws. (He seemed to get along with those who kept them no better than did Jesus, and for the same reasons.) He also doesn't seem to care about respectability or avoiding the appearance of evil - after all, he never tells the tax collectors and soldiers to quit their disreputable jobs, only to do them with integrity. And he certainly didn't focus on matters of doctrine.
John's a real turn-or-burner, but at the same time he's radically compassionate. His style isn't quite to my liking, but his message, I think, is bang-on.
On a related note, I couldn't go through all of Lent without linking to Isaiah 58.
[+/-] Forgive Us Our Debts |
"This, then, is how you should pray:
...Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."Matthew 6:9-15
Someone read this is church last week and I was struck by how strongly Jesus commands us to forgive. He goes so far as to say that God will forgive us if and only if we forgive others. Of course, other passages suggest that the requirements for God's forgiveness are far more complex, but this is not the only place where Jesus indicates that there is a relationship between forgiving and being forgiven.
"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."Matthew 18:32-35
"And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."Mark 11:25
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. ...For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."Luke 6:37-38
I'm not suggesting that we take these statements at face value (as I said, other passages suggest a more complex view) but I think we can say with certainty that Jesus viewed forgiveness as a discipline of the highest importance. I'm surprised that I haven't heard more about this. I can't remember ever hearing an alter call that included an admonition to forgive others. I don't recall ever hearing a sermon on Matthew 6:15, or reading "forgive and you will be forgiven" in a statement of faith. I'm sure no one would argue that forgiving others is unimportant, but I didn't realize that Jesus considered it so important. Food for thought.
1 comment:
[+/-] Trembling Before G-d |
We watched this movie in my Judaism class yesterday.
It's about homosexual Orthodox and Hasidic (i.e. super-conservative) Jews struggling to reconcile their sexuality with their religious beliefs. It follows several people, including a man dying of AIDS and rediscovering his Orthodox roots, a lesbian couple who've been together for twelve years, the world's first openly gay Orthodox rabbi, and an ultra-orthodox, married Israeli woman who dares not tell her husband she's a lesbian. It also includes the perspectives of several Orthodox rabbis who struggle to find a balance between upholding their religious laws and showing compassion and acceptance to people in pain.
I found the movie moving and very thought provoking. It's not pro-gay propaganda, it offers no pat answers, and it's definitely worth watching even if you're not gay or Jewish. I borrowed the movie from my professor until Tuesday, so if you're in town and want to see it, give me a shout. I may purchase my own copy.
14 comments:
http://tinyurl.com/3xnbuy
So many people feel the need to decry homosexuality as a choice simply because a holy book says it's wrong (if you look at certain parts a certain way), and since God would never say something was wrong if people couldn't choose not to do it (another problematic argument as you've been pointing out), then homosexuals must be bad people who are choosing to be bad. Since God and scripture can't be questioned or faulted, the fault must be found with the individuals.
Yet there are people like those in this film who are gay and dedicated to their faith even though they recognize that large numbers of people who share it consider them unacceptable as brothers or sisters in it. They aren't the flamboyant, in-your-face straw(wo)men that are claimed to be out to destroy their respective traditions. They're actually just people who are really struggling with the fact that they're gay and they believe, and feel that both are essential parts of who they are.
I haven't had the chance to see it yet. I'd be up for any opportunity.
Modern clinical psychology has a pretty extensive lineup of effective treatments for those individuals who choose to overcome homosexual tendencies. The political incorrectness and other social castigations pursuant to even mentioning such treatments leaves this information largely hidden and often unused. See the APA's website for what they say & how they word things, if you'd like. Methinks that the reason many people who would like to get help end up not receiving it is due to the strong & vocal throng of those who consider such treatments offensive to their orientation. In the end, those who would like help are squashed by the vocal majority, effectively creating victims of radical oppression.
LE
Regarding "the strong & vocal throng" who oppose such treatments, is there not an equally vocal throng that supports them? And how do those who oppose these treatments stop people from joining them? Doesn't the strong and vocal condemnation of these treatments at least raise awareness of their existence? If a homosexual person really wants to change, I'm sure s/he will have no difficulty finding these treatments, and I doubt s/he will care much what the gay subculture thinks of them.
And if we're going to talk about victims of oppression, I would think that far more homosexuals are forced into such treatments by parents who consider their orientation offensive than are somehow prevented from accessing them by "the vocal majority".
You should see this movie, by the way. I keep forgetting to return it, so I should have it until at least Tuesday, if you're interested.
The APA's link that I gave makes no reference about the nature of the effectiveness of reparative therapies &/or transformational ministries--it simply states that they exist. History as to why the APA no longer endorses treatment for homosexuality is as simple as this: members of the APA took a vote. The homosexual community lobbied the APA during their general conference at Vail, Colorado in 1973 to remove homosexuality from the list of "disorders" within the then current version of the manual's axes. If my memory from my clinical psychology history serves me right... the vote won out at a 51% to 49% split. One of the most vocal criticisms of the DSM by professionals is the fact that it is a "historical" document, prone to cultural influences (then again, what one society calls a "disorder," another one may consider an aptitude, so...).
One of the other families of effective treatments for this behaviour is "conversion therapy," which doesn't show up in many places.
And as for the "strong and vocal throng" who support these unauthorised treatments, they are largely silenced, due to fear of losing their license to practise clinical psychology from performing unauthorised treatment procedures. Heck, if they want to even keep their APA membership they have to follow 100% of the APA's stipulations. No clinical psychologist certified by the APA would really dare treat ego-dystonic homosexuality (now classified under DSM-IV as "sexual disorder NOS")
And, as for the "strong and vocal" condemnation of said treatments, the "strong & vocal" part has largely subsided since the 70's, since such treatments are no longer APA certified. There's no need to raise objection to them, since it's easier just to scoff at them & class them into other unauthorised treatments like blood-letting and lobotomising.
If an individual suffering ego-dystonic homosexuality did want to seek treatment, they would in fact come up against a lot of opposition. Treatment would have to be done in secret (the gay community in the US apparently has sought injunctions after groups who perform such treatments, whether or not they claim to be psychologists), and that after a good deal of searching.
As for talking about the reverse--a forced treatment of an individual who does not view their sexuality as problematic for themselves--such a case is very difficult to even arise. As a part of the code of ethics for clinical psychologists, "forced" treatments would only be carried out in such cases when the individual being treated is in severe danger, trauma or in some other way suffering a major mental incapacitation, where "prescribed" treatment would be necessary for proper basic functioning of the individual in everyday life (can you see where this may have been skewed by interpretation in some historical cases?). The code of ethics for clinical psychologists largely inhibits any case of undesired treatment, regardless of what those around the individual/patient think.
Hopefully this helps clarify what I forgot isn't common knowledge? sorry!
LE.
A quick search for "conversion therapy" turned up an 1997 Washington Post article which indicates that (at least at that time) the APA did not officially consider this therapy "unethical", and did not want to stop the "very visible" coalition that endorses and practices it, but merely to ensure that potential patients are aware of the risks involved.
Practitioners or supporters of treatments for homosexuality are not hard to find. NARTH seems to be the most psychologist-y. Exodus is probably the biggest. I did a quick search on the Exodus site and found FLIGHT Ministries in Edmonton, which I believe I've also read about in the paper. And anyone with web access can turn up many more. If these groups are facing enormous pressure from the APA, they seem to be coping nicely.
I did notice that there has been next to no research into the effectiveness of these ministries. A Dr. Spitzer conducted a study which he believes indicates that a certain (quite small) percentage of cases are successful, although what his study really proves, if anything, is of course hotly debated. The lack of credible studies is to be expected, I suppose. Those who oppose these treatments find the very idea of "correcting" homosexuality offensive, and those who support them (overwhelmingly conservative Christians) have already decided that homosexuality is a perversion, and therefore can and should be corrected. (Of course these are generalizations.) I don't imagine many people would be interested in what a unbiased, professional study might find, if it were even possible to preform one.
For the most part, all we have is anecdotal evidence. (If you have any kind of scientific evidence for the effectiveness of these treatments, I would love to see it.) The ministries and therapists themselves, naturally, claim a high rate of success. Skeptics suspect that at most these treatments will merely suppress homosexual desires, and will likely only exacerbate patients' psychological problems.
My comment about forced treatment of homosexuals was based on stories (more anecdotal evidence) of homosexual teens being forced into ex-gay ministries by their parents (eg. Zack Stark), and also the extreme pressure that must be faced by conservative Christian homosexuals to change (which is obviously not as serious, but far more common). Again, I think the pressures put on homosexuals (particularly those who are conservative Christians) to change by bigoted family members, social stigma, and the "strong and vocal" anti-gay throng are at least as strong as the pressures not to change from the gay subculture (which those who don't want to be gay are unlikely to associate with) or the APA (which may not endorse such treatments, but seems to have neither the desire nor the ability to shut them down).
The APA currently uses the DSM-lV (diagnostic statistical manual version 4) in identifying the factors for a disorder and the appropriate treatment. As with all psychologists depending on your training and your outlook your treatment options are different. The DSM-V did have homosexuality as a disorder until I believe the 1960's, at that point it was removed as there was overwhelming proof that it was not a mental disorder but a genetic condition.
I find it highly suspect that the APA would now approve and condone of treatment towards homosexuality as it does not recognize it as a malady.
As a side note if you have sex more then 7 times a week the DSM-V recognizes that as a sexual disorder. I think one must be very careful when they are looking at disorders and treatments. Just because there is a treatment for something and it is identified as a disorder does not mean that it is an actual problem.
My prof in that class always stressed that what is "normal" is completely cultural and that unless what your patient is doing is harming themselves or others what really is the harm in them doing it. I could not care less if someone loves another person.
There may be treatments for homosexuality however ANY licenced psychologist or group would not be allowed to go use it. Not because it is "taboo" but because it has been deemed unethical and NOT a mental disorder.
Most "treatments" for homosexuality in the 50's and 60's involved giving shock treatment to people as they watched homo-erotic acts on video and in pictures. (how very clockwork orange) Yes it may induce some behavioural changes but it does not change the chemical make up of a persons brain (studies have shown).
A person can make up a so called treatment and claim its efficacy through their own "research" (look at the claims made by scientology and their drug rehab programs). However it does not make it ethical or true. People who are struggling with homosexuality are not struggling with their orientation rather with a culture of exclusion and unacceptance. I find it especially hard when it comes from a supposedly loving and accepting church. Look at your own log in your eye before you start condoning and "treating" the evils of one person.
I would make a distinction (as, I think, does LE) between seeing homosexuality as a sickness and believing that some people can change their orientation. (I don't necessarily hold either position, by the way, but I am at least open to the latter.) The APA's position, as I understand it, is that reparative therapy may (or may not) be successful in some cases, but that it should be approached with caution, because of the potential for causing further harm. I do not doubt that certain methods of treatment have a high probability of causing further harm (shock therapy, obviously, being one of the most extreme). What is unclear to me is whether any attempt to alter sexual orientation, however gently, professionally, and lovingly administered, will likely do more harm than good. This seems to be the APA's concern.
Again, there is quite a difference between saying that all homosexuals ought to enter treatment and saying that under certain circumstances, if a homosexual desires to enter treatment, s/he should be allowed to do so.
I'm not comfortable with homosexuals who, for religious reasons or otherwise, believe their orientation to be a perversion or a disorder and wish to cure it, but I'm not in a position to say that such a change is not possible. And I think that for devout, conservative, religious homosexuals, such treatment may have the potential to be psychologically beneficial, unless...
1. They enter the treatment rashly, without due consideration of consequences and alternatives
2. They are forced or bullied or shamed into treatment by bigoted family members or clergy
3. The treatment is cruel or unprofessional or administered in a degrading or unloving manner
4. The treatment has little or no chance of success (it seems this has yet to be proven one way or the other)
5. The attempt to change sexual orientation is, by nature, likely to be psychologically damaging.
I think these are the questions (particularly 4 and 5) which need to be answered. My concern, based on the little I know, is that there seems to be very few qualified people asking them, and few people on either side of the debate who are interested in the answers.
I have not fully researched effective psychological treatments for homosexual behaviour. Any such research done superficialy on google or otherwise would probably be irrelevant and invalid. It would require an actual concerted literature review on credible published documents.
I think the main point that this whole debate hinges on is whether homosexuality is seen as a mental disorder or a genetic condition. That determines what kind of treatment it recieves. If it is a mental disorder there is hope in finding psychological treatment, if it is a genetic condition then it is purely a medical phenomena.
The APA clearly decided it was not a mental disorder by its removal from the DSM-IV. This view point can be further backed up by the lack of succesful psychological treatment. Treatments that were done back then were more harmful psychologically then beneficial.
In pyschology behavioural conditions can be treated in various ways. With medication, aversion therapy, habituation therapy, and long-term therapy. They are all considered effective and ethical by the APA, as well as have their own individual significant success rate. In psychology as with science you can never prove something only disprove it. Therefore conclusive evidence can be very hard to come by. That is why psychologists deal with "statistically significant" numbers. From everything I have read there is no treatment that has been statistically significant in altering homosexual behaviour.
I know there are many modern treatment options that are seen as kind and progressive. I would however be quite suspect of any such treatment. It is not possible to validate any of their findings as there is no independant body reviewing and guiding the treatment. A benchmark in deciding if a treatment is effective and valid is whether it can be reproduced exactly by another independant person. A reputable publication would never publish any findings if that benchmark is not met. Again I would point to scientology and their "effective" drug treatments.
This then begs the question is it a genetic medical condition. I know much research has been done into that theory and I know there have been many findings. It is funny that in a world so run by pharmaceutical companies (that seem to some times be ethically and morally challenged) there has been no rush to put out the "cure the gay syndrome" drug.
I think it is sad that people hate themselves so much that they feel the need to put themselves through such treatment. However I respect the right of a consenting fully informed adult to do so.
It concerns me that as a society we have made people feel as though they are so unacceptable as who they are that they need to seek out treatment.
I don't think we can say that because the old treatments for homosexuality were ineffective and harmful, any treatments will be ineffective and harmful. It's possible that we simply need better treatments, and it's possible that better treatments are available today.
Obviously, I haven't done much research, but my understanding is that there has been no attempt to determine the success rate of various treatments for homosexuality, except for Dr. Spitzer's study, which seems to have been more or less discredited. If this is the case, then it seems that there's little to be said about the effectiveness of these treatments.
I am also concerned "that as a society we have made people feel as though they are so unacceptable as who they are that they need to seek out treatment". I maintain that as Christians, our first and most important duty to homosexuals is to love them and fight for their rights and acceptance into society, not to argue over what causes them to be how they are (which is scientists' job, if anyone's) or tell them they're sinners (which is God's).
In regards to having homosexuality only treatable if it is a mental disorder; I said that it is important to make the distinction because that would then affect the treatment. I don't, nor does the highest experts in the land believe it is a mental disorder. If it is a medical condition then it becomes a medical treatment. My point I think I was trying to make was that lots of research has been done into the "cause" of homosexuality and yet no treatment has been found therefore no treatment can be given.
The second point of the nature/nurture combination is an interesting one. Of course there are many different ways nature and nurture can interact with the human mind. If you are exposed to a highly sexualized childhood you are more likely to experiment and be comfortable with sex. However it is the conflict of nature and nurture that most gay people struggle with. Nature is telling them to love same sex people and nurture is telling them that the only normal way to behave is to be straight. I don't think that acceptance of homosexual behaviour has gone so far as to encourage people to become homosexual. In fact I would think most people would rather be straight then have to go through all the hardships that being gay comes with. If you talk to most gay people they will say that they knew they were different from very early on (average age about 5), so it would have had to have been very early childhood experiences that made them gay. In fact children do not have the cognitive ability to be mentally scarred till about the age of 3.
The point about modern day treatments. I said it was impossible to evaluate the validity of the modern day treatments simply because of the methods they use. They do not allow independat researchers to evaluate their methods nor do they keep accurate records and statistics of their treatment. It is easy to say something works if you don't have to prove it and no one can replicate your findings.
I believe any treatment is harmful for the simple fact that it makes homosexuality like a disease people should be ashamed of. It is like saying you are not ok as you are, we do not accept you, go fix yourself first. I do not believe in that sort of environment. To me that in itself is psychologicaly damaging to a person.
You're right that most people won't encounter much encouragement to be gay. Whether this means homosexuality is entirely genetic, I'm not sure.
Five sounds like awfully early to know you're different from the other kids. At that age I don't think I could even imagine ever being sexually attracted to anyone, which makes me wonder what about them is different. (If it's even possible to generalize.) I wonder if they feel different because they're gay, or if there are other factors at work that are responsible for both these early feelings and (eventually) being homosexual. Who knows.
Your make an interesting point about those who treat homosexuality not helping those who wish to evaluate their success. Although there may not be a lot of psychologists clamoring to study these treatments if only the data were available. And the therapists involved don't seem to care much about what the APA thinks, so perhaps it's not surprising that they don't give out their info. On the other hand, if it really does work, it seems like they'd be doing themselves a favor to back up their claims with real data.
It's probably true that the majority of homosexuals who enter treatment are significantly influenced by the disapproval of others. Nevertheless, I'm sure that there are some people who are more or less accepted as homosexuals, but who (for whatever reason) just want to be straight.
I can think of one very good reason someone might seek "treatment"... the holy books of many major religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) say that homosexual acts are wrong. If you are a devout Christian, Muslim or Orthodox Jew, than God Himself is telling you not to have homosex... that's a pretty hard thing to ignore. Some people in this positon choose gay celibacy; others want to have a relationship that is Biblically approved- ie a heterosexual one. (BTW if anyone can convince me the Bible DOESN'T denounce homosex I'd love to hear about it, but the scriptures seem clear to me.)
I certainly agree that Christian society has often treated homosexuals like crap. However, that doesn't solve the problem that our Bible consistenly denounces homosexual acts as wrong. I'm not sure what the correct answer is, but if we claim to believe the Bible is inspired by God, but ignore the parts that are troublesome or cause us to struggle, that's not honest faith.
Finally, I should add I have the utmost respect for a homosexual Christian trying to be "good" follower of Christ, while struggling with both homosexual desire and condemnation from other Christians.
I’m honestly not sure whether the Christian Bible actually condemns same-gender sexual relationships, but I lean towards no. I do know the Bible doesn't address the issue of sexual orientation - an idea which has arisen only recently. Christians like to talk about “ex-gays” and celibacy and "struggling with homosexuality". No one in the Bible "struggles with homosexuality". They didn't know anything about sexual orientation; all they knew was that good, God-fearing men had sex with their wives, and wicked men had sex with whomsoever they pleased - even other men. The NT makes no mention of committed, loving homosexual relationships because there was effectively no such thing in the first century Roman world. What there was was a good number of orgies and male prostitutes and relationships that we would now call pedophilia.
Since Paul (the only NT writer to make any mention of homosexual acts) had no concept of what we now call homosexuality (i.e. an orientation) or of monogamous homosexual relationships, there is much debate over exactly what he intended to condemn. The words translated "male prostitutes" and "homosexual offenders" in 1 Cor 6:9 are difficult to translate, but likely refer to the prostitution of young boys. I don't know anyone who is in favor of child prostitution, so I don't see how this passage is relevant.
As far as I'm concerned, the whole biblical case against homosexuality is found in Romans 1. (A passage which I struggle with for more than one reason, and which is by no means easy to interpret.) It's not clear exactly what sexual acts Paul is referring to here, but he does make mention of men abandoning "natural relations with women", which suggests that sexual relations not between men and women are unnatural. I think this is as close as the NT comes to condemning homosexuality.
The choice of the word "natural", implying that the acts he condemns (which are traditionally interpreted as all homosexual acts) are unnatural, is a curious one. Why not say "godly" or "lawful"? (The condemnation would certainly be stronger if the implication was that these acts are ungodly or unlawful.) Biologists tells us that homosexuality does occur "naturally" in some animals, and psychologists tell us that human homosexuality is largely genetic, not chosen. (Some Christians deny both these claims, presumably on the basis of this verse.) It is unclear to me in what sense, if any, homosexuality can be called unnatural. There are a few ways we can go with this.
1. Maybe the experts are wrong and homosexuality is unnatural.
2. Perhaps Paul has made the common mistake of confusing unnatural with uncommon or unfamiliar. Like most heterosexuals, Paul probably had some difficulty imagining that a dude could really be attracted to another dude. The obvious explanation is that these people are perverts. But I know that many of my readers do not accept that Paul could make such an error.
3. If we believe that Paul had some special, Spirit-given insight, we could conclude that the people he's referring to really were acting on unnatural, perverted desires, to which they were "given over" by God (yet another difficult aspect of this passage). If we also accept that, as experts now believe, homosexuality is largely genetic (i.e. natural to that person) and not a result of abuse or choice or wickedness, this seems to indicate that Paul is not talking about homosexuality in general, but about specific, contemporary sexual perversions which happened to be of a homosexual nature.
4. Of course, it’s possible that I’m reading way too much into Paul's word choice, and by "unnatural" he just means "wrong".
I looked up the word translated here as "natural" in my concordance, and it occurs in only one other verse, in which it is translated "creatures of instinct", and is part of a very negative description of false teachers. So it seems the Greek word translated "natural" means something along the lines of "instinctive" (genetic?) and is by no means a synonym for "good". So even if we assume that the word "unnatural" is meant to apply not only to the perverted acts of godless Romans but to homosexuality in general, it is (by itself) hardly a stinging critique.
Also, consider the related word which is translated as "nature" in 1 Cor 11:14. Paul believes that "the very nature of things" teaches us that it is disgraceful for a man to have long hair. Infallibility notwithstanding, I don't know anyone who agrees with him.
It's curious that we automatically dismiss the long hair ban as cultural, even though long hair is still long hair, and yet when we find the same reason given for the condemnation of grotesque, exploitive homosexual acts, many of us insist that what was once "unnatural" (whatever that means) is still and will always be "unnatural", and that this applies even to very different, loving acts of which Paul had no knowledge, and which resemble the perversions he condemns only in terms of the anatomy involved.
The problem is the context. The reference to homosexual acts falls smack in the middle of one of the most scathing condemnations of wickedness in the whole New Testament. The reader can be forgiven for concluding that homosexuality is not only evil, but is indicative of the worst kind of evil. And of course, many Christians have come to exactly this conclusion.
More compassionate, informed Christians do not accept that homosexuality is a tell-tale sign of utter depravity. We’ve noticed that most homosexuals are no more “inflamed with lust” than are most heterosexuals. We don't consider homosexual attraction to be a "shameful", and we don't believe that it is a result of idol worship. (Although male temple prostitutes were apparently common in Paul's day, so he likely noticed a strong correlation between idolatry and the "unnatural" sexual acts he condemns. If you believe Paul's writing is infallible, you can take the further step of saying that this specific brand of immorality was a divine punishment for the idolatry of Paul's contemporaries, but of course, this will only be accurate of practitioners of that specific ancient religion.)
So I don't think the theory that Paul is speaking of homosexuality in general fits the text as nicely as many believe. Those who take this view must explain why homosexuals are not particularly given to "every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity... envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice", or being "gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful... senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless". Some will respond that homosexuality is an indicator not of extreme personal wickedness but extreme cultural (or even general human) wickedness. It's probably true that Paul isn't thinking of a group of people in which every person has every vice in the list, but the New Testament gives us no indication that there were Christians among those who God "gave over to shameful lusts" (although there were apparently former male prostitutes in the Corinthian church). Neither is there any biblical mention of these "unnatural" lusts among God-fearing Jews. Additionally, the text seems to indicate that these lusts are a direct consequence of idolatry. If the Romans 1 passage is meant to apply to all homosexuals throughout all time, it is difficult to explain how devout, un-idolatrous Christian kids end up being gay.
It is true that there is a correlation in the Bible between homosexual acts and general depravity, but it is simply not true that all [members of the group we now call] homosexuals are depraved. And every time the scriptures condemn a sexual act between men, it is an act would also be condemned were it preformed between men and women. We don’t need to say that homosexuality is wrong in order to explain why God condemns Roman practices of prostitution, pedophilia, or orgies, any more than to explain His condemnation of the gang-raping, uncharitable Sodomites. I can see no indication that the few Biblical passages addressing homosexual acts are meant to apply also to monogamous homosexual relationships, in fact I find this interpretation difficult to support.
I recommend Real Live Preacher's post on the subject, which formed the basis for these thoughts. In a (miserably unsuccessful) attempt to keep this brief, I've focused on the one passage which I believe forms the best case for condemning homosexuality, whereas he takes a broader approach.
Homosexuality and scripture is not something I have really studied; I was just pointing out why many Christian homosexuals feel the need to change... so I will bow out of this discussion until I become informed.
[+/-] Credo |
Blessed art I, the Lord thy God,
King of the Universe,
Who conveniently hateth thine enemy.
Who sanctifieth thy unsavory whims,
And justifieth whatever the fuck
you felt like doing anyway.
That's a bit from Credo, a short film that you can watch here. (Thanks to rlp.) The lyrics are here.
Regarding the film's major theme (the quote at the top isn't directly related) I'm not sure what I think of the idea that God cannot see the future, that he fails to understand the consequences of his actions, that he does not always do the right thing. It certainly explains a lot, about both the world we see around us and many troubling Bible stories. (The Bible never says God is all powerful, and what it does say about God changes an awful lot.) But it's a very frightening thing to consider.
2 comments:
Also, if God can't know the future either, then all the passages about satan already being defeated, the prophesies (sorry, i don't have my bible with me) then those would be false, no? There would be no guarantee in anything. Maybe i'm taking this too seriously.
And it's even scarier, I think, to believe a being as powerful as God is fallible. The more power you have, the bigger the mistakes you can make. And if God really has done things like harden hearts and sanction genocide, and if he had no great, unfathomable reasons for doing so, then He's made some very, very big mistakes. Big enough that they may call God's trustworthiness into question. Honestly, I'm not sure if I'm prepared to consider this possibility.
If God is really behind Biblical prophecies, He probably has at least some idea of what will happen in the future. But maybe He doesn't have foreknowledge, just intentions and the ability to carry them out. Maybe He doesn't know exactly how things will shake down, but He's confident that He'll defeat Satan in the end, like a chess master who's lured an inferior opponent into a complex trap.
[+/-] Without Excuse |
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.- Romans 1:18-20
Suppose we accept Paul's claim that creation reveals the "invisible qualities" of God. What would these qualities be? Of course we all see the world differently, and our religious beliefs influence our view of nature at least as much as nature influences our religious beliefs. It's hard to say what we might see if we looked at the world with fresh eyes, but we can make an educated guess by considering the beliefs of primitive religions, which are based primarily on observation of the world rather than supposed revelation. I'm not an anthropologist, but from my limited and perhaps inaccurate knowledge of the matter I have to following objections to Paul's claim:
1. The range of beliefs about among nature-based religions is vast. Thus the list God's qualities which are "plain" to everyone will be very short. Paul suggests that humanity in general has scorned the plain knowledge of God that nature provides, so someone may argue that those primitive religions which have very unbiblical understandings of God (the overwhelming majority) have intentionally ignored or distorted the natural evidence. I would reply that the unbiblical beliefs of nature-based religions make a lot of sense, and that belief in the biblical God is distinctly unnatural - that is, unlikely to result from simple observation of nature. This will be more clear in subsequent points.
2. Monotheism (belief in one god) seems to be quite unpopular in nature-based religions. Polytheism and pantheism are far simpler explanations for the immense diversity of nature and the plethora of forces (creation, destruction, nourishment, illness, etc.) at work in the world. Judging from nature, if there is only one god, he seems to be schizophrenic. I think it would be very difficult to argue that nature itself, apart from any religious, social, or scientific frameworks, points to a single God.
3. It seems to me that most primitive religions center around either appeasement or manipulation of the gods. The world is filled with suffering, which strikes seemingly at random. It is a basic human intuition that suffering is the result of the gods' displeasure, and the general brutality of nature suggests that the gods are easily angered. My understanding is that most primitive religions view the gods as either angry, vindictive beings who demand fear, strict obedience, and sacrifice, or as petty magicians to be bribed or manipulated for personal benefit. Although the biblical God does seem to have a vindictive streak, I think the God Paul is thinking of differs vastly in terms of both "his eternal power and divine nature" from the sorts of gods that are generally inferred from creation.
If you resist the idea that nature suggests a much crueler or much less powerful god than the Bible's, consider the first chapters of Genesis. The very first thing the Bible tells us is that the world we currently inhabit is not an accurate reflection of God's personality. Our world (according to Genesis) is full of suffering not because God is weak or sadistic, but because humans messed it up. Without this crucial information, you'd expect people to get a very different impression of God from nature.
4. A major theme in the Bible is the question of why a good God would allow the righteous to suffer and the wicked to go prosper. This is an excellent question, and it springs from the recognition that the world we inhabit does not seem to be governed by a powerful and just God. This puzzle eventually led to the concept of an afterlife (which developed between the Testaments, and not from divine revelation) in which we are finally repaid justly for our earthly works. The Jews, like all peoples, recognized that nature does not bless the meek, and from our worldly experience alone we have every reason to believe that the gods are indifferent to morality, or that they merely help those who help themselves. It may be true that all people have some moral code within them, but I don't believe nature suggests that the gods value this code.
It seems to me that the qualities of God that can be "clearly seen" in nature are in fact quite different from those clearly seen in the Bible. Paul, of all people, should know that the truth of Christianity is not self-evident, even to those with the benefit of familiarity with God's prior works.
8 comments:
If anything is "simple", it's monotheism itself. Hey, let's just assume that all divinity is one entity (a man), and that all complexity is within this entity/man. Doesn't that point to simple worship and simple worshippers ?
Perhaps, Jake, the simplest explanation would be an approach wherein a host of spiritual beings interacted and oversaw much of the natural (physical) world, each with a specific office and spehere of influence. That being said, one can also--as the good irenesson pointed out--come then to the conlcusion that there is one overarching mastermind of the whole gambit (heck, even the majority of polytheistic religions seem to have a head honcho in each one's respective panoply... [yes I'm using the word liberally]). A God of gods; a King of kings; a Lord of lords--so to speak. If one were to actually look at the Biblical account, the operational definition of "monotheism" goes only so far as allowing one being to be deemed as a god. The rest of the spiritual host necessarily become subordinate to the Almighty One. Our Bible makes no claims to absolute monotheistic reality. In fact, a multitude of gods are discussed--and even recognised--in the Bible. The distinguishing mark being, however, that the One is the only one of the many who should be recognised as God.
My second comment is largely covered in the first, but I will present it nonetheless. It saddens me to see such a post wherein the author claims (or seems to claim) to approach all subject matter with an unbiased, level-headed perspective, yet wherein the content is unaviodably skewed through lack of supportive documentation/research upon the post's subject. Mind you, this could be due to a possibility of you playing "devil's advocate" and looking for a readership response, or it could simply be a quick post without approaching the content with much consideration, etc. As it stands, it seems to be that the argument you use to back up your position is based largely on personal preference/speculation rather than upon external references. One could just as easily construct an argument for the opposing viewpoint using the same subjective foundation of personal opinion.
Now, although this isn't necessarily a problem, I myself have come to expect a more rational approach to the content of your blog posts over the course of your publishing. If I'm off base, let me know.
Sorry!
LE
LE makes a good point about the usual tendency for pantheons to have a 'father of the gods' figure or a dominant god. Again, the Bible is pretty ambiguous (despite the efforts of Frank Peretti and others) as to the purpose and status of spiritual beings other than God himself. They're generally only mentioned in passing, so it's hard to gauge what role they play other than that they're subservient to God, but they could be considered a pantheon of sorts as it is indicated that they aren't simply generic copies, but actual individuals with names and, apparently, different assignments.
One of the questions that occurs to me is how did Paul himself view nature? I'm not sure if this could be ascertained from the writings of his we have, but if he's looking at nature and seeing the qualities of God, it's important to know what he's seeing there.
He references 'invisible' qualities of God, so it would seem there are some qualities he considers 'visible'. What those are he doesn't say. The qualties he does refer to - eternal power and divine nature - are, in a sense, without qualification. There is no statement of intent, purpose, or morality in them. All nature based religions look at nature and see a divine presence and generally attribute immortality to that presence, even it is only an eternal process of dying and rising again.
That said, I think that perhaps your problem with the passage is not that he suggests that nature reveals these two particular invisible qualities of God, but his statement that therefore all men are 'without excuse' and that what might be known about God has been made 'plain to them', suggesting that anyone who does not see God (as viewed and defined by Paul) in nature is being blind or delibarately obtuse.
Again I think it would come back to Paul's view of nature. I can't say I'm familiar with what the general Jewish or Roman view of nature would have been at the time, but it might be a place to start. It would seem in this case that Paul is looking at nature and seeing what he believes about God as opposed to looking at God and seeing what he has observed in nature, which would be more along the lines of what you're talking about in your post.
In the subsequent verses Paul criticizes the making and worship of images in the likeness of animals, birds, and man, and more specifically that they, in doing so, missed the invisible qualities he references ('the glory of the eternal God'), apparently instead viewing God as being something like themselves or what they were familiar with. In other words, these two particular invisible qualities of God - his divinity and eternality - can be seen from observance of nature, but He should not be mistaken for being like nature.
Whether the patrons of nature based religions are indeed mistaking God for being like or a part of the substance of nature is open for question. Certainly the use of nature as a simile or metaphor for aspects of God is quite Biblical. Paul's critique seems to be that they sacrificed the invisible qualities he mentions and took too literally the visible aspects of nature.
As to the question of whether any of this leaves all men 'without excuse', that depends on what Paul considers a valid level of belief before the coming of the Christ, a question he doesn't address here. Certainly to say that from the observance of the fact that there is a divine eternal presence, everyone should therefore have come immediately to a full understanding of the Judaic or Christian God is unreasonable. It's assumed by some in what Paul says here, but I don't see him saying it. It's at least another chapter and a bit before he gets into specifics of theology and the person of Christ.
Regarding your second point, I don't think I've ever claimed to "approach all subject matter with an unbiased, level-headed perspective", only to attempt to do so. Of course I recognize that I consistently lapse into bias, and I welcome attempts to correct my biases. I also recognize (and I stated in my post) that my knowledge of nature-based religions is quite limited. For this reason I tried to keep statements about what these religions teach to a minimum, and say "seems" a lot. If any of my readers are more knowledgeable, I invite them to confirm or correct my statements.
The point of my post was that nature alone seems (to me) to indicate a God who is much less consistent, less powerful, less loving, and/or less concerned with morality than the God we know, unless certain aspects of nature (eg. the prevalence of suffering) are explained by certain Bible stories (eg. the fall). Without the Bible, I argue, people can be expected to get a very different idea of God from looking at nature. (A point which, to the best of my knowledge, most nature-based religions support.) I thought that at least my third and fourth points (the more important ones, I think) are much more than speculation and opinion, but if you think I haven't made my case, we can certainly discuss this further.
But I think that even if my personal beliefs about what sort of god(s) can be inferred from nature are somewhat less popular than I think, I'm sure that there are at least some people who agree with me - at least some people for whom the biblical God's "eternal power and divine nature" are not clearly visible in nature. So unless we're being willfully blind (or I've missed Paul's point) I don't see how this passage makes sense.
My impression of pantheons (thinking mainly of the Greeks' and Hindus') is that the dominant god tends not to be significantly more powerful, nor of a different nature, than the lesser gods. I think Polytheists tend not to give special honor to any one god, except for those whose particular domain then inhabit, or those best suited to grant them a certain favor. The Judeo-Christian idea that there is only one true God, whom we must worship and pray to, is very different. In fact, God's wrath in this passage is directed towards those who "exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images" representing lesser spiritual beings. My objection (point 2, somewhat revised) is this: how could people who have never read the Bible be expected to know from nature that there is one supreme, jealous God, who doesn't like graven images?
I agree that it's important to ask how Paul viewed nature, and similarly, what qualities of God he thought it clearly displayed. I understand "God's invisible qualities" to mean "God's qualities, that are invisible". (It seems to be very important to God that people not try to make him visible.) If even God's invisible qualities are "clearly seen", and those who ignore them are subject to His wrath, I shudder to think what might happen to those who reject his visible ones. But maybe his visible qualities are trivial things, like his uncanny resemblance to Morgan Freeman.
It's true that Paul's quite vague about what God's invisible qualities are (which really diminishes the instructional value of the passage) but from the context, he seems to be thinking particularly of God's omnipotence and His passionate distaste for immorality and idolatry. And I would agree that anyone who clearly understands that there is an omnipotent God who hates idols but who continues to worship idols kind of deserves what he gets.
You're right about my problem with the passage - I have no problem with Paul seeing whatever he sees in nature, but I don't like his claim that everyone else sees what he sees, and faces God's wrath if they disagree.
You may be right that Paul's objection to idol-worship is that it diminishes glory and eternality of God, and that some (but likely not all) idol-worshippers probably do this. Still, I have a hard time believing that this is evident in nature, and that those who deny it are deserving of God's wrath. (I also have a problem with God "giving them over to sinful desires" but that has more to do with my previous post.) This is particularly strange coming from a guy who believes that the fullness of God dwelt in a physical being. Not that an incarnation is quite the same thing as a depiction, but it's a narrow distinction. Another writer (say, a Muslim) might object to this sort of diminishment of God's glory and eternality just as strongly as Paul does to idols.
[+/-] His Love Endures Forever |
Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good.
His love endures forever.
To him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt.
His love endures forever. - Psalm 136:1,10
What a bizarre thing to say. From my perspective, killing children is not a demonstration of love. I would call it cruelty, murder, perhaps genocide.
I suppose the author considered God's love (particularly his enduring love) to be more or less exclusive to Israel. The killing of every firstborn male in Egypt for the sake of Israel is seen as a cause for celebration and worship. This idea that's God's love is foremost or exclusively for the chosen people (chosen, not more obedient) crops up often in the Old Testament. Malachi even tells us we can see God's love by comparing Israel to those he hates.
I've mentioned before (point 5) that nations in the Bible seem to be only as good or evil as their kings. When righteous kings rule, the people are obedient and God blesses them. When wicked kings rule, the people are wicked, and God pours out his wrath upon them. I somehow doubt that all the people of a nation suddenly became moral or immoral when a new king was crowned; more likely the rise of a wicked king meant that the wicked people became wealthy and powerful, and with the rise of a righteous king they were killed or removed. Unless human nature has changed drastically since Bible times, I can't believe that there was ever such a thing as a wicked or righteous nation, only nations in which the ruler allows either wickedness or righteousness to prosper. If this is true it seems horribly cruel and unjust for God to bring judgment on a nation like Egypt. There was never a referendum on whether to let God's people go, and even if the majority of the Egyptians were resolutely opposed (which they weren't, as we'll see) the minority would not deserve continued judgment. (Someone might argue that God judges nations as a whole because it is not possible for him to pick a specific kind of person, such as "the wicked", out of a group and kill only them, but Exodus says that it is.)
But it gets worse. The Bible says that God "hardened Pharaoh's heart" so that he would refuse to release the Israelites. I've heard people defend God by claiming that first Pharaoh hardened his own heart several times, and then at a certain point God started hardening it for him. This is supposed to show that if you rebel against God for too long, eventually he gives up on you and makes you an object of his wrath or something like that. (So much for "His love endures forever".) Aside from not addressing the problem of judging a whole nation for its ruler's irrational obstinacy, the main problem with this claim is that it's not true. God planned to harden Pharaoh's heart right from the start. Look:
The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'" - Exodus 4:21-23
And He says it again. (This is still before Moses has come before Pharaoh for the first time.)
"You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites." - Exodus 7:2-4
Sure enough, Pharaoh's heart is hardened. This is referred to at least a dozen times between Exodus 7 and 14. Sometimes it says Pharaoh hardened his heart, and sometimes it simply says that his heart became hard, or was hard, but mostly it says that God hardened his heart. I suspect that the writer of Exodus doesn't pay particular attention to who was responsible for each instance of hardening. The point seems to be that both Pharaoh and God are responsible.
It's strange that God goes through this long, brutal charade of demands and plagues and heart-hardening. The text seems to indicate that at several points God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart actually prevented Israel from being released, so clearly all this suffering is not an unfortunate-yet-necessary means to the deliverance of Israel. It seems that God's only reason for sending at least the last three plagues (those that occur after the last mention of Pharaoh hardening his own heart) was to demonstrate his power. God killed thousands of children just to prove that he could. And it gets worse:
Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. - Exodus 11:5
If the death of a child was a just punishment (which it isn't, according to the God of Ezekiel), the death of Pharaoh's firstborn might be considered just. You'd have to argue that it was punishment for his general cruelty, rather than for his final, God-forced refusal to free the Israelites, but we'll let that pass for now. It might even be possible to argue that the Egyptians in general deserved this punishment for their cruelty towards Israel, although I would vehemently disagree. But what possible reason could God have for killing the sons of slave girls?
Forget about God hearing the cries of the oppressed. That's not what this is about. Far from concerning himself with their liberation, God is perfectly willing to bring suffering and destruction on Egypt's non-Jewish (i.e. non-Chosen) slaves. I suppose the reason is that the death of their firstborn slaves, along with their livestock and their own sons would make a more impressive demonstration of God's power for the Egyptians. That's God's goal here.
Bear in mind that by the time the tenth plague rolls around, no one wants the Israelites in Egypt anymore. The Egyptians have been made "favorably disposed" to them. (Which seems to mean scared to death.) Even Pharaoh's officials are urging him to let them go. And the Israelites themselves are still in slavery. The only one who's interested in delaying the exodus is God, who is intent on further proving his power by killing children.
By the way, I've often heard the argument that God refrains from performing great miracles in our time because of his great respect for human free will. The idea is that if God openly and miraculously intervened in our world, we would be forced to believe in Him. I have several objections to this argument. Is simply believing in God's existence what He wants from us? Isn't it obedience? Disbelief in the existence of God is quite a recent development; did humans have less free will before the advent of atheism? And most importantly, where is this concern for free will in the Bible? Jesus doesn't refrain from performing miracles for fear that it might force someone to believe in him. Signs and wonders are a staple of evangelism is Acts. And in the Old Testament, miracles are continuously performed not in spite of but for the purpose of proving the existence and power of God. (Remember Mount Carmel?) Here in Exodus, not only is God not concerned that his miracles will compromise free will, but he repeatedly overrides Pharaoh's free will in order to to preform more spectacular (and more horrible) miracles, and he does this explicitly for the purpose of proving his existence and power.
It astounds me that God did not simply kill Pharaoh himself, and anyone else who would prevent Israel from leaving. This would be more effective, more just, at least as easy and no less spectacular than killing firstborn sons. Why target children? That's movie-villain stuff. Even in war, the death of children is a ghastly thing, and anyone with a shred of decency will try to avoid it. That God kills thousands of people at the same time, and kills only firstborn males, and kills every one of them except those in houses with lambs' blood on their door, shows that He strikes with a precision that no earthly force could dream of. That He directly targets not those who deserve punishment or those who present and obstacle to the freedom of his people but children, even the children of slaves, and that he planned to do this from the beginning, and hardened his adversary in order to make this possible, and did it simply to demonstrate the magnitude of his power, makes him a monster.
To clarify, I do not believe that God is a monster. I believe in a good and compassionate God; a God whose love endures forever. But I do not believe that the God described here and in similar Bible stories is my God. (If you think this is an isolated incident, see Joshua 11.) It amazes me that anyone can believe in the God described by Moses and Joshua. It amazes me even more that people can describe this God as loving.
12 comments:
Regarding your second question, "true" can mean a lot of things. If we find that a story like the creation story does not fit with our idea of historical truth, it's worth asking whether it was intended to convey a different kind of truth, such as theological truth. Certainly it's easier to interpret the Bible if we believe that everything in it is true in all the ways we would expect it to be true (including historically and perhaps scientifically) but I don't think "whatever's easiest" is a very good hermeneutical principle. I'm not sure why the truth (of any kind) of the creation account would be necessary for the truth (of any kind) of resurrection account. Can you explain this to me?
Hmm, even as I type that it doesn't seem as sound of an argument as it had before. i would still be interested in hearing your opinion.
I don't have an alternative theory on why the world became imperfect, or wasn't perfect in the first place. That's way beyond me. I do believe that Jesus' death had profound metaphysical consequences - that in some sense he saved us - but I couldn't tell you exactly how, or from what. But I believe that Jesus' death, like his life, was an act of love, which has consequences not only in eternity, but here and now. I believe Jesus came and lived and died in large part to change the way we live, the way we think, the way we interact with each other and with God. Does that make sense?
LE.
Jacob, I suppose God's lawyer might argue that all the egyptian children were going to die anyway at some point, and that God has the right to pick the time... perhaps the kids get extra rewards in heaven. (Ya I know that you won't buy this argument at all.)
Some rather charismatic books I read would propose that heathen egypt, or Canaan, was thoroughly infested by demons. This makes the exodus or the conquest of Caanan a war between God and Satan. By killing the first born sons, God shows his clear victory(perhaps because first born sons were often sacrificed to gods?) By killing everyone in Canaan, God removed the demons infesting them, making the land inhabitable for Jews.
I don't think I buy the abovementioned explanation either, just thought it might by interesting. In fact, I have no clue why God would chose to smite Egyptian children, other than to say that the death of children in the OT is often seen as supreme punishment for the parents. Sucks for the kids, that's for sure.
Let me just say that it took me several years to come to that place - to reconcile the two, b/c they seem to be opposites. Can God be holy and judge sin, and also be full of love and compassion - to a point where the bible says He is, in fact, love itself?
The answer is yes...but that doesn't usually makes sense to us very easily.
Can I leave you some food for thought?
First of all, God knows, you, sees you, sees you when you lie in bed at night, knows your going in, coming out, no thought or way of yours is hidden from him, if the bible is true, right?
And His love for you is true - He will accept you and love you like no one else will...
But here's the catch:
Do you deserve that (and do I)? Look at your life - and truthfully consider this. What you are asking of Him - to love you, accept you, receive you, and even reward you...are you really deserving, and am I or anyone else?
The bible says we deserve death...and nothing more - eternal separation and punishment from our loving creator. And, Jacob, sin is ugly - no matter how you slice the pie. It hurts, kills, steals, and destroys from your life and from mine; small or large, it kills.
If you believe you are deserving, ask God to prove this to you - will He defend you - or are you trying to defend yourself before the one who gave you life and can take it away in an instant?
Do you know how many hairs are on your head? He does. Consider the reply of Job to God:
"But how can a mortal be righteous before God?
Though one wished to dispute with him, he could not answer him one time out of a thousand.
His wisdom is profound, his power is vast. Who has resisted him and come out unscathed?
He moves mountains without their knowing it and overturns them in his anger. He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble.
He speaks to the sun and it does not shine; he seals off the light of the stars.
He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea...
When he passes me, I cannot see him; when he goes by, I cannot perceive him.
If he snatches away, who can stop him? Who can say to him 'What are you doing'?...
How then, can I dispute with him? How can I find words to argue with him?
Consider this, if you are willing:
The same God whom Job knew he could not contend with - the God who could have killed Job at a moments notice, restored to him his fortunes - twice what he had before.
I don't understand Him fully - it's like looking "dimly through a mirror" (1 Cor 13) right now. But I know this: I can't change Him. I'm a blade of grass that's here one day and gone the next. "What is your life?"
While it doesn't make sense, our lives are valuable to Him...and all your sin and my sin that made us so undeserving was paid for on GOOD Friday...why else would a "LOVING" God sacrifice His own son? You talked about all the children of Egypt that God had cut down because of the people's sin - well, He let His own Son - His perfect Son who never sinned - be cut down for your sins, for your mistakes, and for mine. The one who deserved glory was crucified for our mistakes. He knows what it is like to lose His child - His innocent child.
If that's not love, I don't know what is.
1.humans are so wicked that we deserve to suffer intensely and endlessly
2.we deserve this from the moment we're born (because we are in some sense "guilty" of Adam's sin)
3.every moment that God chooses not to pour out his wrath against us is a pure, undeserved, and unfathomable act of grace
4.any time God does choose to smite someone, for whatever reason, he is completely justified in doing so, regardless of circumstances.
My problems with this doctrine run deep. For one thing, it derives from a particular reading of the story of "the fall", which I think causes more problems than it solves (see this post). But the case of the plagues against Egypt presents a special problem for this view.
If we suppose that even the infant sons of Egyptian slave girls were deserving of death, and thus that none of the plagues were unjust, then why didn't God just smite Egypt? Why did God go through the long charade of ordering Pharaoh to release the Israelites, hardening Pharaoh's heart so that he would refuse, and punishing Pharaoh's "disobedience" by pouring out His wrath on the Egyptians? (He does this repeatedly.) If all humans are, by our very nature, deserving of God's wrath, why does God need Pharaoh's (forced) rebellion in order to unleash his plagues and prove his power?
I don't quite understand what you are talking about, but I know that Jacob has a father, and a good one. Maybe I am nissing your point.
[+/-] God-Breathed and Useful |
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.- 2 Tim 3:16-17
A recent conversation with my friend Lucid Elusion got me thinking about this verse. I've decided that I don't think it means what a lot of people think it means - that the Bible is inerrant or infallible. (I'm not saying that the interpretation I'm challenging is that of my friend, only that it seems to be a popular reading.) Here's why:
To begin with, it goes without saying that a statement in the Bible about the Bible cannot be used to prove its infallibility. A good skeptic will not be at all impressed to hear that the Bible says it's infallible. But most Christians already have great trust in the Bible, and if the question is not "is the Bible at all reliable" but "given that the Bible is reliable, just how reliable is it", then such a statement is of some interest. The logic is something like CS Lewis' famous Liar/Lunatic/Lord argument - if an author claims to be infallible, either he is attempting to deceive his readers, or he's badly mistaken (and probably a bit crazy), or he's correct. I'm not sure that I accept Lewis' argument, particularly in this revised form, but I won't get into that here. What I want to examine is not the truth of Paul's statement, but its exact content. Is Paul really claiming inerrancy?
First of all, there's a question of what the Paul (assuming Paul wrote 2 Tim) considers to be scripture. I'm told that the early Church used the Septuagint (an early Greek translation of the OT, plus additional books), which includes many books and additions that we no longer consider to be "inspired", by which we mean inerrant. Perhaps Paul, an educated Jew, would have made a distinction between the OT and the Apocrypha, but his Greek readers would not. The NT gives no indication that any attempt was made in the early Church to clarify exactly which books are "scripture", and if anything, Jude's matter-of-fact references to contemporary myths suggest a fairly loose understanding of the word.
So when Paul says "scripture", it's unclear precisely what he means. We can be certain he doesn't mean the 66 books to which we now affix the term, because some of them were yet to be written, and the exact content of our Bible was not finalized until centuries later. Hard-line infallibilists are obligated to believe in the inerrancy of not only the Biblical authors, but also the members of the church councils that determined which books would be included. Thus for the sake of clarity, I propose that this verse be read "All books which are accepted by the church as scripture are God-breathed and are useful..."
But this does not help the infallibilists' case, because for the original readers, this statement would apply to the Apocrypha as well, which no infallibilist I know considers to be scripture. Instead, they might wish to read this verse as "All books which were ultimately recognized by the later church councils as scripture...", but this is problematic because it means that both the author and his original readers were mistaken about this verse's true meaning. In fact, for the early church the verse would have the deceptive and somewhat dangerous effect of seeming to claim inerrancy for writings which we now know to be errant. The only other readings I can think of would be "All books which are considered scripture by God, regardless of any human opinions...", which is even less helpful because it gives us no indication of to which books it applies, or "All books which are considered scripture at the time of this [Paul's] writing...", which no one I know would agree to.
Some will resist my interpretation of "scripture" as here meaning "all books which are accepted by the church as scripture" because of the apparent implication that the inerrancy of certain texts could change as they were added or dropped from the canon. But I don't think this verse is about inerrancy at all. What it says is that scripture is "God-breathed" and "useful".
"God-breathed" is not a word found anywhere else in the New Testament. According to my concordance, "God-breathed" is a literal translation of the Greek word, which comes from the words "God" and "blow", and which refers to the inspiration or communication of a deity. It's not unreasonable to think that something inspired by God would be without error, and I can see why some people understand this as a claim that the Bible is completely accurate in all matters - theological, moral, historical, scientific, etc. - from beginning to end. If a God-breathed text contained errors, they argue, it would mean that God is either lacking in knowledge or lying to us.
But no one will argue that hopeless wails of the Teacher in Ecclesiastes, the anger and bitterness of the Psalms, or the self-righteous condemnation of Job's friends represent ethical and metaphysical truths. Of course not. These are examples of the human element of the Bible. Truth cannot be plucked from the pages of the Bible as from a creed (yeah, right) or even a physics text. No one argues that the Parables of Jesus are historical truths, and anyone who looks to Psalm 137 for moral instruction is headed for trouble. Even the staunchest literalist does not claim that every statement in the Bible is true.
So what might "God-breathed" mean if not "free of human emotion, bias, and error"? I'm not sure exactly, but I think the rest of the verse gives us a hint: "All Scripture is... useful". Useful for what? Understanding science? History? The mechanics of salvation? No. Useful for "teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". And in case you didn't catch it the first time, he adds "so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
A story doesn't have to be historically accurate to be useful for training in righteousness. Jesus knew this better that anyone. And if we believe that this great storyteller had a hand in the crafting the rest of scripture, why are we so certain that the other stories it contains are historically true? And why do we think it matters?
It just occurred to me that "God-breathed" has a different feel to it if we call God "Daddy", as Jesus suggests. What might it mean for something to be Daddy-breathed? Parents tell children what they can understand, embrace, and learn from. They don't read them historical tomes or ethical treatises, they read them fairy tales. I think there's a temptation to think of the God who breathed the scriptures as more of a professor than a father, as if a book can only be useful for training in righteousness if it's true the way a physics text is true (only more so).
I'm not saying there is widespread historical inaccuracy in the Bible. (How would I know?) I'm just saying I don't think it really matters one way or the other. Paul could have said "All scripture is God-breathed and true", but he didn't. So I don't know what exactly Paul thought of the inerrancy of scripture, but it seems that he didn't consider the matter worth writing about. What was more important to him, apparently, is that the Bible is "useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". I like that.
8 comments:
Applause seems to be in order here. An excellent, well formulated and completely accurate understanding of what Paul's writing there. Scripture never states that it is historically, scientifically or chonologically accurate; what it says, however, is that it is right & effective for instructing/building righteousness. Inerrancy and "correctness" are not necessarily equivalent (though, there is a tendency for overlap), especially when the Bible qualifies its claims with the clause "useful for...".
Trust me, you don't want to read a physics text to study proper English prose; nor do you want to leaf through Shakespeare to understand fundamental theories on even simple kinematics. It's nice that the Bible is fairly explicit in what content it is seeking to convey in its various sections, and that, often (it seems to me), one needs to try to overextend Biblical content from the realm of Biblical authority. Nonetheless, the Bible does have a limit to its authoritative range, and we should respect such limits, lest we risk bringing dishounour to the Good Book.
Here's your applause:
*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*
LE
If David didn't REALLY kill Goliath, if there was no REAL mircacles or REAL feeding of the 5 thousand, the stories lose significance for me... this holds especially true for concepts like the incracnation and the ressurection.
(Please don't misunderstand me as saying YOU believe all Bible stores to be non-historical.)
Glad you liked it LE.
And Filth-Man, you make an excellent point. I tried to be vague about how far I would take the fallibility of the Bible, because I think there is a wide range of reasonable positions, and I can certainly see how believing that Biblical miracles actually happened would be important to a lot of people. Of course, a person doesn't have to be infallible to write about a miracle, and if we believe that God had a role in the writing of the Bible, we can trust that the central aspects of our faith are accurately (though not necessarily perfectly) recorded, including miracles like the incarnation and resurrection.
I think what's most important about a story like the feeding of the 5000 is the point that God provides, however I can see how the story is more effective if it's believed to be factual. So again, I would say that if we believe Jesus was divine and had the power to preform miracles, and we trust that he did many such things that are not recorded in scripture, then for me at least, whether he actually preformed this or that specific miracle becomes less important.
It's also worth noting that from a critical perspective, the New Testament is more trustworthy than the Old, simply by virtue of being more recent. So we have no way of knowing whether someone like Abraham existed, but we know Jesus did, and we know the effect he had on the Roman world shortly after his death.
But people can and do believe in whatever level of Biblical accuracy they need to. I can understand why it's important to many people to believe that the miracles recorded throughout the Bible all occurred pretty much as described. I think this kind of faith is just fine, but I don't think we should kid ourselves that we know that these things happened by claiming that the Bible is infallible. That's not faith.
I would have to disagree with your assertion about critical analysis claiming that newer information necssarily implies more accurate infomation. Such a statement, I must point out, is fundamentally flawed. It is not the age of the material that makes the information more credible, it is the amount of corresponding & supportive external referencces that do. For example, I could claim right here that I am thirteen years old--a very fresh statement, from a source that is purportedly an expert on the subject (myself and my age), though an older document (my birth certificate) may dispute my claim. Who wins on accuracy? Well, since the birth certificate was issued through the witnessing of my entering into this world of no less than three cognisant others, as well being verified by a handful of other documents and individuals with vested authority... I think the piece of paper wins out. I may know myself pretty well, but the wealth of corroborating information available to support the birth certificate's claims make it a more reliable choice. Get my drift?
The only reason that "age" would impact the purported authenticity of the Old Testament is due to the fact that as time progresses, peoples & societies tend to forget. Records get lost, monuments crumble, people die. The iron-wrought supporting record rusts away, leaving us with an extremely well-guarded document at the core, whose contents were literally inspected for quality with religious fervour, rejecting any copy that had so much as a single uncrossed "t" or undotted "i" for generations.
Again, it is diffuclt (albeit, impossible) to prove the accuracy of the OT, but since the NT--as you stated--seems to be relatively accurate, one can induce that a culture who places such an extremely high level of importance on accurate record keeping (Yes, that's our friends, the Jews) would hold onto that tradition at a consistent level of fervour from the initial document, right on through to the current edition.
Just my two cents.
Elusive Lucidity.
Literal religious fervor for the preservation of a document has both positive and negative effects on its credibility. It's true that the Jews have a long history of meticulously copying religious texts, but they also have a long history of writing texts that claim to be authored by long-dead famous figures, claiming to be historical accounts of events that occurred centuries before their actual writing. They also have a tendency to quickly adopt these texts as authoritative and authentic, and to believe in them and copy them with this same religious fervor.
[+/-] Father, Forgive Them |
When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." -Luke 23:33-34
I think it's significant that Jesus does not merely ask for their forgiveness, but adds "for they do not know what they are doing", as if their ignorance ought to (but does not automatically) absolve them. I think this passage, among others, suggests a far more complex model of guilt and grace than I'm used to.
Whose forgiveness is he talking about? It seems that there were a lot of people involved who didn't grasp the significance of their actions. The soldiers who crucified him didn't realize he was innocent; they merely followed orders. The crowd that called for his crucifixion were told to do so by the chief priests and elders - their spiritual and social leaders. The priests and elders were acting on the ruling of the High Priest, and the High Priest believed Jesus to be guilty of blasphemy, and thus deserving of death. Pilate found Jesus innocent by Roman standards, but certainly didn't realize he was killing a sinless man. (And from a utilitarian perspective, he probably did the right thing.) Even Judas didn't fully understand what he was doing, because he didn't believe Jesus to be the Messiah. (He did realize that he'd shed innocent blood, but for this he seemed to genuinely repent.) If we take Jesus' statement as normative (i.e. all those who sin unintentionally ought to be forgiven) it seems that there's an awful lot of sin that qualifies, at least in part.
More food for thought: Jesus forgave people who didn't ask for it. (Didn't he know about the fourth spiritual law?) He told some people to stop sinning. (Stop all sinning, or just the major ones? Did Jesus think that certain sins aren't a big deal?) He said that he came to call sinners to repent, not the righteous. (I thought no one was righteous.) He even forgives a man because of the faith of his friends. (Can I save others by my faith?) And here he seems to be saying that God should forgive those who sin in ignorance. (This is especially weird because it sounds like the Father is less willing to forgive than Jesus.)
I like the weirdness of this verse because there's a lot of talk in the Bible about sin and guilt that really bothers me. I don't understand why Adam's sin would create a "sinful nature" in humanity, or why this would be passed down to his descendants, or why individuals in the Bible were consistently punished for the sins of their nation, king, family, or ancestors, or why I deserve judgment for being imperfect if it's impossible for me to be perfect, or why anyone at all would deserve to suffer eternally for finite sins. My issues with these concepts run pretty deep, and I doubt I'll be able to fully accept any of them any time soon. But maybe part of the problem is that words like sin and guilt have very narrow, specific definitions in my mind, whereas the Bible's use of these words may be different, and more complex.
1 comment:
Are there really spiritual laws? If so, Jesus certainly didn't sit down and state them. He talks in stories and rhetorical question and a madenning habit of messing with people's minds.
If there ARE spiritual laws, where do they come from? If God made them up, he sure was hard on us, and even Himself... (why would crucifiction be required for Him to forgive?) If these laws are above God, why do they exist? Why should God need to follow laws at all? Bibically, he sems to follow some of his own ethical code to humans(He claims never to lie) but has no problem, say, killing.
In the Bible I don't see clear laws at all. Rather, God seems to do whatever He feels like at the moment, and who is to stop Him? Sometimes he lets Satan run the world and lead people astray, and sometimes Satan's just a defeated enemy to be laughed at by mere humans.
Jesus forgives all sins- except, of course, if we do not forgive other people ourselves, or commit the mysterious unforgivable sin. Does lusting really get you thrown into hell? Why would Samson, who was defnined by lust and vengeance make the Hebrew's hall of fame, while other people get smited for rather minor offenses?
Either I am dumb and can't see the connections, or the Bible is very confusing. Or maybe God is just so Other from us that we can't possibly understand, a problem that I'm sure even Bible writers struggled with.
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6 comments:
Do you ever have readers demand posts?
Although really, the first part of February (a generous person might even say all of February) probably still counts as "Januaryish".
I haven't had a great deal of reader demand for posts in the past, but I'm considering taking things in a new direction. This blog may be headed for a more interactive future.
Or no future at all. Who can say?
Love the bunny pic.
Don't taint my favorite month with the disgusting overlap of January. There's a reason "January" is in that "Januaryish", it only belongs in the dirty month of January. Don't you dare post in February and say, see "Januaryish". As you can see, I am not a kind, nor generous dictator of the blogosphere. I wield my power with great wrath and hardships befalling everyone I come in contact with!
What kind of direction? One that caters to a more MTV style generation? Or perhaps pet lovers? (By the way, you know either of those directions would bring up the Ian Shorten readership). Pretty interested.
No future? Aren't you going to join in the blog revolution? You're one of the old greats, help us bring it back and fight off the evil Facebook (P.S. Delete that shit, it will ruin your ability to communicate properly with people, or put in the proper amount of effort into a friendship).
Bunny pic? What the hell. That is no "Bunny pic". That's ART man. I'm now into "ART" like, hardcore. So don't be calling the ART I put on my wall "Bunny pics" sir. Luke would be very angry with you (Like he is with me when I forget how to spell his full name).
It's true that I'm one of the old greats of blogging. But I wonder if it's time to pass the torch. I just don't have the passion I once had.
My sincere apologies for the lack of respect I showed the ART. And a less sincere, somewhat perfunctory apology for calling associating February with January.
I never really thought of you as a Valentines Day guy.
To my knowledge there's no mention of my personal feelings about drunkenness in the Bible.
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