About Hell and Stuff Like That
"I'd been avoiding the subject of hell for some time, living in denial. We gentle Christians often do this. The harsh reality of our theology works against what we discover in real life." - Real Live Preacher
I think I'm starting to believe that there are many ways to heaven. (I think this is called pluralism.) I don't really want to believe this in some ways, but I do. My reasoning is simple:
I do not accept that any person who is earnestly seeking to find God and find truth will ultimately become a Christian. Both from a logical point of view and from my own experiences, I do not believe that the Christian God will make himself known to anyone who really desires truth. I believe that a person of sincerity and humility of any background can end up believing in any number of religions and worldviews. I do not believe that someone who dies as a Muslim or a Atheist or a Buddhist did not become a Christian because of his or her own refusal to accept the "obvious truth" of Christianity.
From my point of view, a Jewish Rabbi who "taught himself Greek just so he could look into this 'New' Testament" (rlp) and ultimately rejects it cannot be condemned for doing so. I cannot believe in a God who would place people in a situation where their earnest quest for truth would end with the wrong conclusions, and then damn them for it. If that is who God is, then I want nothing to do with him. If you can prove to me that that is who my God is, I don't think I could stand to be a Christian any longer. If my only options are to burn in Hell or live forever with a God like that, then it would have been better if I had never been born.
My conclusion is that any sincere, humble, truth-seeking person will ultimately be accepted by God, regardless of what creed they come to profess. This feels ugly and awkward to me, but I see no other possibilities. I think CS Lewis would agree with me, to a point (See The Last Battle and The Great Divorce) but other than that I may be on my own in this view. (What I mean is that besides Lewis I'm not sure who I could appeal to in order to still come across as a good Christian boy, and yet hold this view. Anyway, I don't think Lewis takes this as far as I would.) I'm not sure what my church, my camps, or the other places where I volunteer will think of this. Coupled with my general distaste for evangelism, I guess this means I'm really not an asset to them in accomplishing what is often a major goal - converting people to Christianity. Also they tend to want you to agree with their basic creed or whatever in order to work with them, and usually that includes something like "the only way of salvation is through personal acceptance of the substitutionary work of Jesus Christ on the cross and His consequent resurrection" (from a camp's website). At this point in time I disagree with that statement.
I don't want to sound like I think people shouldn't bother with seeking for truth just as long as they're sincere or nice or whatever. And I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to leading someone to Christianity, or towards Christianity, if I thought it best. (Though I'm never doing this again. (I'm referring to the story in the middle of this post.) By the way, I say "lead to Christianity" not "lead to Christ", because I think that's a very misleading statement. If there's someone out there who can actually lead people to Christ, I'd like to have a talk with them.) I just don't believe that convincing someone to pray a certain prayer or to identify themselves as a Christian is always a positive step.
I'm feeling a sense of loss now. A year and a half ago I was a good young Christian, confident in my beliefs, preaching the gospel to cabin loads of boy and excited about going to Bible School in the fall. Now I'm coming to realize that my "crisis of faith" is maybe more than a blip on the screen, and maybe I'll never be a good Christian again. I do miss that. I wouldn't want to go back, but I miss it. Last summer I really wasn't up to snuff theologically, and I told them so, but they were happy to have me anyway. I don't know why they let asked me to counsel, but I guess they thought I was just going through tough times or something and soon I'd be a good boy again. (After all, I'm a Christian. I've got eternal security. Sooner or later I'll come around.) I'm realizing that some parts of my life are over now. I guess sooner or later some people will get tired of waiting for me to snap out of it and I won't be able to do ministry anymore. It's sad because I don't feel like some kind of spiritual invalid, having needs but unable to help others, but I think sooner or later some people will start seeing me like that. What good is a Christian who doesn't want to convert people, who doesn't think we need to?
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9 comments:
Something didn't quite work for me in your post there! But today I was looking at the verses in Jeremiah 29:11-14. I whole-heartedly believe that a person who earnestly seeks God will in fact find Him... what happens after that is the person's own choice. Our God always gives us choice -- do we choose the greater or the lesser? That remains in our hands alone. I fear that many times I have chosen the lesser, to later be guided back, with a few more scars than before. But, praise God, He can use those scars to minister to others...and also to me. There's a song "Less Like Scars" by Sara Groves, that was my theme song last year as I emerged from a harsh battle.. discovering who I was. Each day is new... though every day, I carry those scars with me as a reminder of what I've been through... they may never disappear this side of eternity, but what a story I have to share! Prayers as you continue along this journey.
Thanks for the comment, whoever you are. I don't know if Jer 29:11-14 neccessarily applies to us. Like most of the Bible, it is addressed to a very specific group of people (Jews) in a very specific situation (physical exile), promising a very specific thing (to bring them back to Jerusalem in 70 years). As usual, we take this passage and say "oh cool, God's telling us that he loves everyone and always wants to be found by us and to bless us". This may be true, but I don't know why we always take these cheery OT snippits and "claim them" for ourselves. There are innumerable other prophecies that we do not take to apply to ourselves because they're condemning or restricting or whatever. I sometimes think that the parts of the Bible we pay attention to are the parts that would look good on a Hallmark card.
I think basically I believe that God will accept even those who he does not lead to "the truth" (be that Christianity or anything else). I believe this not because of any scriptural evidence or personal experience, but because I just have to believe it. I don't think I could cope with the knowledge that God hates certain people and predetermines that they will go to hell. So which is true - does God accept those who come/are led to the wrong conclusions, or are they damned for their honest misunderstanding? I think you could get a good deal of scriptural support for either view, but I know that I would find it very difficult to continue to seek or serve God if I believed the latter.
I don't understand how you guys can all talk about the bible so in depth and enjoy it day after day. I get bored thinking about your posts to each other. I must have missed the train on the bible being an interesting and talk worthy thing. Not sure why I posted because this offers nothing to anyone.
Ah yes, Jacob. This is just Steve writing. You know, from camp, school, etc...
Hahaha. I am blown away with what you write. First and foremost because I completely understand, yet at the same time I whole heartedly completely disagree. And I know you are fair with that.
What to say...alls I can say is that I'm sure after I write everything I'm going to, seeing each other in the hallways is going to be weird. One thing I came across from a person who is going through bible said - "If you are not strongly based in the Christian faith, then you are going to get nothing but screwed up in Bible School." Well, from the sounds of it, you got pretty screwed up. So I am fair to say that you were not a strong christian before going to school. Sure you might have had your "highs" and your "revelations" when reading the bible, but it means nothing if it's not used properly. Personally, you should have waited another couple of years before going to the screwed up Mount Carmel "Bible School." (It's a good school, but it's not about theology anymore. It's about, well...I don't know anymore. But it ain't theology).
The big point - the only way to the Father is through the Son. It doesn't matter what you think, or what I think or what a rabbi thinks. It's what God says. And ALL scripture is God Inspired. And the best thing - "Jacob" - is that you KNOW that. You are making yourself believe something else for your own spiritual fulfillment.
Last thing. Don't ever do things for God expecting something. When we were talking at camp you were saying you had great times with a Charasmatic group. I know that's awesome. It sure is. You said you were then looking for something. Don't ever make God feel Obligated to us "lowely" humans. He's the creator and sustainer of life. He blesses you everyday by giving you a new day. Unfortunately, you are using it to only question Him and trying to understand God.
Here's a great verse for you Jacob - Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. I write these words with Love and a passion for wanting to help you. Oh yeah, and I'm one of those guys who seeks God and gets a response from Him. He talks to me bluntly alot of the time. It's a great feeling. But out of obligation, God won't do that. He's not that type of God. I'll put it to you this way. I lay my life at the feet of Jesus everymorning and say: "Take me where you need me, lead me where you want me, and lift me up accordingly." It's not about me. I encourage you to do that. Live for God not expecting anything. Oh yeah, and another thing, God knows our hearts, attitudes. He can see past the words we are just saying.
Peace out and continuous love from a brother that cares.
-steve...
Hey, this is just steve again.
If you want to reply (anyone) to what I wrote or have any additional feelings or you need any clarification on anything, my email is born2explore@hotmail.com
I'm trying to get my blog back up, but I forgot my email adress. Hopefully it will come in the mail. Other than that, Jacob, I've really been praying for you. I seriously have never had your feelings of "life," but I will say that I will continue to pray for you. God is always sooo good. But other than that, I'm outty.
-steve...
Nicely put, Soren.
I will say one thing: Writing on a keyboard to have it posted on the internet will never convey the true emotion trying to be shown. As I was reading your post I didn't sense any hostility or anger; yet you said you were sorry for your tone. So, with that, I am sorry for conveying a non compassionate, or less caring feeling. It was not my intention.
Another thing. It is true we are all made different. I will never know what Jacob is thinking, feeling, wanting, needing; and the same for you also. I will never truely know. At the same time, you were talking to me like I have never been through hell and back. That I'm just an everyday Christian who just "loves God." I won't justify myself or explain myself, but I have been through alot of things were I could have cursed, belittled, or even blasphemed God! (I'm not angry - I used the exclamation mark to get across my point ;P). We all have reasons to doubt God. But true character is shown when we don't. I'll state it again. I am writing this very joyously.
I will also say this again, I know exactly what you are saying in how I don't understand what Jacob is feeling. I don't. I'll admit that. But when you look for mistakes, you will find them. EVEN IN THE BIBLE. And in this case, they aren't mistakes. They are different accounts and different uses and purposes. Like the Gospels and the demon possessed man (men). Different accounts. They heard different (and maybe saw different) things. But the end result is no different. Jesus drove demons out that day! Other than that, I've written more than I wanted to. God Bless and take care Soren. Remember, the more we question God the more miserable we feel.
-steve...
Thank you all for commenting. I count it a blessing to have such diverse opinions and viewpoints expressed about the issues I struggle with.
Steve, I'm not sure what you base your opinion of Mount Carmel on, but based on my experience there I don't think it's particularly prone to "screwing people up". Or if it is, I don't know if it's a bad thing. Honestly, what Carmel did that "screwed me up" was get me digging deeper in my Bible. The more I learned about this book that is the basis of my faith, the more I had problems with it. Again, I'm not sure that this is a bad thing, but if it is, I don't know how I could have avoided it while still learning more about the Bible. Whether I was a strong Christian before Carmel depends on your definition of strong Christian, but I don't think I was any less strong than those who were not "screwed up". I think my struggles have more to do with my personal experiences, desires and personality type that my weakness as a Christian or my attendance of any particular institution. That's what I think about Bible School, though I'd be happy to discuss this further with you or anyone else. I hear Carmel has a bad name among more conservative Bretheren Churches, but I don't know exactly why this is.
"And ALL scripture is God Inspired. And the best thing - "Jacob" - is that you KNOW that."
No, actually I don't. I'm sorry, but you're wrong on this point - I can tell you cadegorically that I am not convinced that "ALL scripture is God Inspired", so unless I'm lying about this, you're mistaken.
You're right that I often "do things for God expecting something" in return. This is a weakness of mine (and of a lot of people, I'm sure). There's a fine line between having faith and having expectations, and I've never figured out where that line is or how to walk it. "Draw near to God and he will draw near to you" is a very difficult verse for me. Either I'm not drawing near to him correctly, or him drawing near to me is very different from how I imagined it. I don't know.
I'm glad for you that God speaks bluntly to you. And I know that you love me and want to help me. I appreciate that. I'm out of time for the moment, but I intend to write more in response to the comments here. Thank you all for sharing.
Ian, I'm glad that you take the time to read sometimes, even though it bores you. I can't account for my desire to think about and talk about this stuff day after day, though (as I've said before) I do believe that these issues are more important than any others.
Soren, I thank you for your kind words and your insightful comments.
Steve, I don't know if I agree with your statement that true character is shown when we don't doubt God. I think that there is such a thing as unmerited or excessive doubt (of which I may be guilty) and that this is bad, but I don't think all doubt is wrong. Also, I would like to make a distinction between doubting God and doubting a certain protrayal of God. Since God has never spoken directly to me about anything, I might argue that I have never really doubted God per se. What I tend to doubt is various beliefs about God that are held by myself, my peers, my culture, my religion, or the authors of the Bible. I suspect that any Christian who thinks about his/her faith will doubt in this way from time to time (eg. "Is my church really right about issue x?") but where I differ from some is that I am willing to doubt the words of the Bible. Is this wrong? I don't think so. On one hand, there's something to be said for just picking something and sticking with it, that is, trusting in something like the Bible and not causing every question and uncertainty to plunge you into crippling doubt. On the other hand, I think it's valid to look at something you've always believed - even something as significant as the Bible - and say "I don't know if I believe this anymore. I think I need to examine it further." I'd like to think this is what I'm doing.
Whether there are genuine errors in the Bible is debatable. I would hope that my previous two posts about the Bible have at least opened some people's eyes to the possibility that the Bible contains errors. I am by no means suggesting that anyone should discard the Bible entirely because of these uncertainties, but rather suggesting that it is legitimate to look critically at Biblical doctrines as a result of these uncertainties.
By the way, a friend of mine who knows some ancient Greek explained the one man/two men problem to me, so I'm at peace about that specific issue. Said friend claims to be working on a reply to my posts in general which will hopefully shed some more scholarly light on some of the issues I raised.
Ok, I think I'm done for now. At any rate, I'm out of time again.
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