I got thinking recently about the idea that all the suffering we experience is ultimately for our own good. It's true that we often seem to become stronger, wiser, more compassionate, and so on, as a result of hardship. Perhaps God is justified in allowing or causing pain because ultimately the good it produces in us outweighs the inherent evil of our suffering.
For most of us (Kantians may disagree), the ethicality of inflicting pain on someone "for their own good" is a question of ratios. How much pain are we talking about? How much good may result? How likely is the desired result, how devastating the worst case scenario, etc. I think we can agree that disciplining children, in a reasonable and restrained way, is necessary and good. Few of us would wish that we had never experienced pain, and perhaps some of us who have experienced great pain believe that it ultimately worked for our benefit or betterment. It's difficult to speculate about what a completely pain-free creation might look like, but I'm willing to concede that a certain amount of pain (perhaps much more than I would think) is necessary in order to make us what we are meant to be.
Still, it's hard to imagine all the pain we experience having a positive effect. I don't have a problem with God putting us through adversity, but sometimes it feels like He's pruning with a canon. Pain seems to weaken or destroy people as often as it heals them.
It's not the existence of pain that bothers me. It's not even the amount, strictly. (It certainly looks excessive to me, but who am I to say what's necessary?) What horrifies me about pain is that it seems to be distributed completely at random. Pain falls in great mounds and bare spots, choking many of us with more than we can bear and leaving some with less than they need. Could it be that the God who wrote the laws of physics and wove our DNA allows suffering to rain down on us, but cannot regulate the flow? Or am I to believe that tsunamis and genocides are doled out with eyedropper precision? How then can I account for those who are overwhelmed and ruined by extraordinary pain?
In my attempts to account for what seems to be a profligacy of suffering, I feel that I have a choice between two extremes: either I must believe that God is in way over his head, powerless to reign in the horrific and gratuitous suffering of so many of his creatures, or else I must believe that God's power far surpasses even my wildest dreams.
Please do not confuse the latter god with that of orthodox Christianity. I'm talking about a god who possesses power and a plan that far surpasses what any religion permits me to hope for. A god who is at work on something wholly beyond my understanding - a god who will not merely bring an end to suffering, but who secretly collects every drop of senseless pain and evil and works it all for some greater good.
I don't see a place for a middle-strength god - one who commands the wind and the waves but cannot stop hurricanes and tsunamis, who saves forever His elect, but loses the rest of creation to hellfire.
I don't think the profusion of senseless and destructive suffering is a mere misperception. I see evil in this world that no theodicy can account for, and no god I've heard of could possibly set right. I do not have the ability to be optimistic about the ultimate goodness of our suffering. My only choices are dark pessimism, or wild, desperate hope.
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15 comments:
What about hell? You may have a point there, but I think that even hell is a state from which humans can be redeemed. Besides, whatever else hell is, it's supposed to be justified pain...
Which leads me to a final point. I can't agree with Christians like RC Sproul who seem to think that any suffering we might incur is fair because we are totally depraved... but I do think it's reasonable that some percentage of what we suffer is "justified" in terms of the evil we do. Sometimes there's a direct link to our own evil and the pain we suffer (such as jail for breaking the law.) Usually, the crime doesnt' fit the punishment so well, but the fact remains that we both commit and recieve evil. I guess I'm saying I believe in karma (to a limited degree)... At the end of time, the scales get balanced; either fairly, or infinitely unfairly in our favor.
I do not think that God is here, keeping tabs on our life. The joy is in the living and we have been given a great gift. Our lives are the reward and the punishment.
That's terrific. But piling grace and goodness on top of evil does not negate the evil. Imagine a father who brutally beats his child for one day, and then becomes a model parent for the rest of his life. On balance he's a good dad, but that doesn't excuse what he did. No one will say of him, "Yes, he treated his child horriffically, but for such a short time!"
I think it may have been misleading to call belief in gratuitous suffering "dark pessimism". I think its possible to have a positive worldview despite this belief, particularly if you also believe in eternal bliss. But gratuitous suffering is still gratuitous suffering. If we really believe that much of our pain is senseless and unneccessary, the promise that God will "make it up to us" in the distant future is small comfort. At least for me.
I think I agree with your clarification, since I believe in gratuitous suffering (in the sense that it is not inflicted with express purpose). I guess I believe that God lets the world just run, a lot of the time, that tsunamis and earthquakes and mudslides and disease mutations just happen... or are caused by supernatural forces other than God.
I think we often forget that evil beings (Satan, demons, whatever) are also part of our theology, and they have limited (but extensive) power to make things suck for us. I have no idea how these things work or what rules they are governed by, but it's reasonable to assume that a being of pure evil would make humans suffer- through natural or supernatural means- as much as they were able... perhaps Satan, too, is permitted to act according to his own free will some of the time, even if it sucks for the rest of us?
I remember CS Lewis writing about how we are "invaders on an inhabited planet"- inhabited by Satan; and Lewis' theory that evern animal suffering was somehow caused by Satan's (not man's) fall from grace. It was interesting, anway.
FM: So I don't know this from personal experience, but I suspect the prospect of future rewards tends to be a greater consolation for those who struggle with great personal suffering than for those who (like myself) approach this as a somewhat abstract intellectual dilemma.
Of course it's true that there are other free agents in our world than God, possibly including evil spirits. Biblically, it's unclear how much "veto power" God holds over the destructive decisions of other beings. But it's hardly more comforting to think that demons hurt us against God's will than to think that impersonal forces of nature hurt us against God's will. In either case the pain is the same, and God is far weaker than I want him to be.
I wrench with inner pain when I read between the lines of your writings. I sense the anguish of foiled effort and fruitless search, but I have begun to ask what is it that "this Jacob" really seeks. I quote the "about Jacob," at the top of the blog page, "I'm looking for something.
God, maybe. Or truth. Purpose.
I'm what Christians might call a seeker, except that I'm a Christian myself and I'm still seeking."
You define the God of your perception in the last article, "I'm talking about a god who possesses power and a plan that far surpasses what any religion permits me to hope for. A god who is at work on something wholly beyond my understanding - a god who will not merely bring an end to suffering, but who secretly collects every drop of senseless pain and evil and works it all for some greater good. I don't see a place for a middle-strength god - one who commands the wind and the waves but cannot stop hurricanes and tsunamis, who saves forever His elect, but loses the rest of creation to hellfire."
My question to you (and all your readers) might be, should you find this God, what would be your reason and response? Is it to understand Him? I heard it once said, "If you can find me an earthworm that understands the ways of a man, I'l promise to find you a man who understands the ways of God."
If our search of God is to arrange a debate with Him and tell Him a thing or two - I wish you good luck! because you will need it!
If our search for God is to sincerely worship Him - I assure you that, like many before us have found, He is not hard to find. One might argue: "How can we worship One we don't admire? How do we admire one we don't know?"
Maybe it's better to ask, "How much does your favorite pet know about you?" Does it really matter to that relationship? How much do we really know about anything? The more I have learned the more I know that I don't know much at all.
Is the search of God something to satisfy ourselves, so that we can meet some inner need? The link to finding God is so simple that most of us miss it. In our anarchial perspective of life we don't like it. Jesus said, "If you love me do what I've said." The key to finding a meaningful relationship with God is the attitude of worshipful obedience. It involves the turning away from self centered living to a total dedication of life and purpose to bring the most possible glory and honor to God. This is not humanly possible because we like to be gods to ourselves. However, we were promised the Holy Spirit who would teach, correct and enable us to live in such a way that we are able to fulfill the predesigned purpose for each life. Those that find this, are "the elect!" The elect are prechosen because of the fore knowledge of God, Who saw the level of willingness on each of those individuals to bow in humble worshipful. He then provides an ever growing willingness to obey the prompting of His Holy Spirit.
The evil we face is not the fault of God either by effect or lack of intervention. God is not too weak to stop what we deem painful, destructive, or even conterproductive. Any time that human choices deviate from that perfect plan it will produce to a greater or lesser degree - certain pain and destruction. An affect not limited to the person themself, but also on those around them. This ripple effect can reach forword for generations. It can only be stopped by those individuals who at any point and at anytime in that cycle, return to the choices that produce true worshipful obedience to God. An individual cannot affect change on the whole of society, but can totally change the outcome of their own life and others around them. This is the truest rendering of the Biblical term repentance.
It is difficult to capture in a few sentences the profound and wonderful purposes of God. But I hope and pray that your search of God will bring you to Him, but on your knees.
Dr. DEE
Actually, the God of unfathomable power described in this post is not at all "the God of [my] perception". He is the God I hope exists, despite the fact that everything I perceive suggests otherwise.
I suppose my response to God, should I find him, would depend on how he reveals himself. Based on others' experiences, it seems that God isn't all that interested in being understood by us (even to the extent that we could understand him). I suspect that an encounter with God, whatever form it might take, would not open my eyes to the true nature of the universe, the extent of God's power, or the cause of human suffering. But it might change my perspective.
I'm certainly not hoping to fully understand God, and I have no interest in accusing him of anything. The idea of wrestling with God appeals to me, but I doubt he'll ever give me the opportunity.
I do wish to sincerely worship God and I think I manage to do this on occasion, although not perfectly. (And I don't think the desires to worship God and to fight him are mutually exclusive.) However, although I don't doubt that many who have desired this have found God near at hand, I think there are many others who have had the opposite experience.
If you're suggesting that my failure to find God indicates a lack of desire to worship Him, I would remind you that God does not deal with everyone the same way. Your own experiences with God do not make you an expert on my motives or desires.
You're right that knowledge about God is not necessary for a relationship, but relationship is not the goal here. I have neither knowledge nor relationship, but I still deal with God as a philosophical issue. God for me is a belief that can, I hope, be reconciled with my experiences and knowledge. That's the project this post addresses. You seem to construe everything I write as a cry for God to reveal Himself or a lament for His absence. It's not.
Regarding pain, I certainly agree that human evil causes a large percentage of our world's suffering, but we can't be blamed for all of it. Even if God has good reason to allow humans to inflict horrific suffering on ourselves and creation, there's a lot more pain to be accounted for.
Job:38:1: Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job:38:2: Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job:38:3: Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job:38:4: Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding....
The rest of the book (of Job) makes a relevant read, okay, the rest of the book (the Bible) makes a relevant read, but you get the "."
The difference between my questions and Job's is that Job presupposed the existence of a powerful God. So Job's claim that he suffered unjustly implied that God had wronged him.
I'm not accusing God of anything. I'm not saying anything to God here at all. This may be difficult to believe, but my questions about the existence and nature of God are not fueled by anger or bitterness.
I'm not attacking the God with whom you presumably have a relationship. I'm just trying to figure out if I believe in Him.
Is that ok? Do you think God's annoyed by my philosophical pondering?
you're going straight to hell:)
I am glad to engage in discussion on these matters. I can not totally identify with the philosophical approach because there is a certain complexity that is created by the philosopher in which only he/she really knows the truth of what is being said. I can not argue with the same eloquence, I just know the things that have worked for me and many others that have been in my charge to help over the years. God is not distant to those that seek Him humbly. If you or I might have reached the status of humility let us not try to judge that but rather let the attitude of humility govern how we think and act, and God will respond in return. God is not interested in "sharing the stage" with anyone - He doesn't need to -because there is none that compares or equals Him in any way.
The sense of His presence and His care about me gives me the strength to carry on even when things are very tough and adverse. The only perception I disagree with in these comments would be the perception that we could find God by trying to define or challenge Him. Jacob of old had the chance to wrestle with God in a physical way. Some times we idealize some things that will never be our own experiences. I personally would never want to challenge God -there is no way that you or I would be His match.
I find it helpful to read the various perspectives, so as long as I can, I will continue to drop in on your musings from time to time...
"Dr.DEE"
Have you really found that God is not distant to all those who seek Him humbly? I'm pretty sure I know a few other people who haven't had this experience, and it surprises me that you haven't encountered any.
So what do you make of me? Is it at all possible that I've sought earnestly and not found? Or are you so confident that you know God's ways that you think I must be either lying or somehow confused about my experience?
I never said "we could find God by trying to define or challenge Him". I'm not challenging God. I wouldn't exactly say I'm trying to define God either. More like trying to form a reasonable belief about Him. In any case, my purpose is NOT to provoke God into revealing himself. I think I've been quite clear about this.
You're probably right that I idealize wrestling with God. I'm sure it would be a hell of an experience. Of course I wouldn't be a match for Him, but that's not really the point.
When I hear the Jacob story (wrestling God) the first thing I think of is how exhausted the guy must have been. A regular wrestling match is 4-6 minutes long. I once went 14 minutes. Can't even imagine wrestling "until the breaking of the day". Then there's the ground; wrestling on a soft mat can cut you up plenty, Jacob most have been oozing blood everywhere doing it on a riverbank. Plus, wrestling God... must be crazy strong- dislocates a hip with one touch, afrer all. I wonder what technique one could try... but I digress.
I don't think I ever quite understood the symbolism of that story. Not sure the more literal aspects have any deeper meaning, but I couldn't resist.
This was what you said:
"I'm talking about a god who possesses power and a plan that far surpasses what any religion permits me to hope for."
It sounds to me like you are deliberately referencing Ephesians 3:20 - "Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us."
That sounds like Christian Orthodoxy to me!
But then you demand "A god who is at work on something wholly beyond my understanding"
You mean a God of whom one could say, "How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!" (Romans 11:33)
Sounds like Christian Orthodoxy to me!
You are also looking for "a god who will not merely bring an end to suffering, but who secretly collects every drop of senseless pain and evil and works it all for some greater good."
You might as well say 'I am interested in a God who works "all things for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."' (Romans 8:28)
And that... is orthodox Christianity.
Look, Jake, the problem of evil is a huge problem. The central question for Orthodox Christianity is if evil can be accommodated by a God like the God of the Bible. I think it can. You disagree. Don't you?
It was a while ago, but you're probably right that I was thinking of Eph 3:20. The problem with the claim that God can do more (immeasurably more!) than we can imagine is that most of us, like Han Solo, can imagine quite a bit.
Does the Bible really portray a God whose power is beyond what we can imagine? Well, maybe some of it. But I think you'd agree that the Biblical God usually comes across as less than omnipotent. Or even immeasurablymorethanwecanimagine-potent.
It's certainly orthodox to believe that God works in ways that are beyond our understanding. If we believe that God works at all in this crazy world, we've got to believe that.
And I suppose one could even argue from rhapsodic exclamations like Rom 11:33 that the biblical God may be capable of what I want him to be. But this would not be an orthodox interpretation, would it? I don't remember anything about universal salvation or the redemption of all creation in the creeds.
Rom 8:28 is one of the most hopeful and encouraging verses in the Bible, and it certainly influenced my thoughts. In fact, I would be content to cling to this verse and go no further, so long as I could be allowed to believe that all are "called according to his purpose." Unfortunately, in the next chapter Paul gives every indication that he doesn't believe all are called.
Orthodox Christianity certainly accounts for a great deal of evil. But not all of it. I mean, Orthodox Christians believe that most of humanity is destined to be separated from God for eternity.
That's a lot of evil. I can't accept that much evil.
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