This is the third installment in my series on the problem of pain. (It starts here and continues here.) In this post I will examine the Biblical story of the fall of man, which purports to explain how suffering became a part of the world God once called good.
The Bible tells us that God intended the world to be a sort of paradise. The description of this paradise is very helpful to a discussion of suffering and evil, because it serves as a vision of a perfect world - a world created by a loving and powerful God. If we accept this description as a part of the Biblical explanation for the existence of suffering, we need not further ponder or debate what a perfect world would look like, we need only determine whether the explanation of how this original paradise decayed into our present world is reasonable.
The Bible does not describe Eden in detail, but it does imply something about it that I find very interesting. As God goes through his creating process he repeatedly stops to remark that it's all very good. The last time he says this is after he has created everything, including plants, animals, and humans. But just before giving this final expression of approval, he tells man that all the plants on earth are his to eat. But they're not just his - they're for all the animals too. Presumably, God thought it would be best if animals weren't killed for food. I recently watched Jurassic Park, and I'm inclined to agree with him. Animals hunting and killing each other is a ghastly affair. The writer of Genesis, along with other Biblical authors, was clearly of the opinion that creating animals which eat each other alive would be inconsistent with the character of a loving God.
For the modern reader, who has at least heard of old earth, theistic evolution, etc., the obvious question is whether all animals really were herbivores before the fall. If animals hunted and killed other animals before humankind came into existence and sinned, I can't see how Adam's fall or subsequent human nature can possibly be blamed for all that suffering. (Of course there are other possible explanations, which I will discuss in subsequent posts.) But if you believe in a literal six-day creation, the Garden of Eden, universal vegetarianism and so forth, it still strikes me as exceedingly odd that God would create animals which are specifically and meticulously designed to be killing machines, since his intent was for them to remain herbivores forever. Isn't the incredibly adapted anatomy of living things the whole platform of creationism? If cheetahs and crocodiles and velociraptors sat around in the Garden and ate grass with cows and sheep, what does that say about their design?
I think the most obvious counterargument for young earthers is that predators were changed after the fall, in the same way that snakes and thorns and the pain of childbirth were changed. This is certainly possible. If there was no death before the fall (which presumably happened soon after the 7th day) there would be no fossil evidence of the pre-carnivorous versions of modern predators. But then the question arises of why man's downfall would have such a radical impact on the rest of nature - not only the physical alteration of innumerable species, but also (it would seem) the beginning of disease, natural disasters, and even death itself, throughout the whole world. Are all these great evils natural, cause-and-effect consequences of human sin? What happened when Adam and Eve bit into that fruit?
The forbidden fruit seemed to have an immediate effect on Adam and Eve - they realized they were naked, and felt ashamed. But what else happened at that moment? Apparently nothing worth recording. The kids weren't really in trouble until Dad got home. And what does God say when he finds his children have disobeyed him? Does he explain to them the natural consequences of their actions? Does he tell them how their disobedience has set in motion events that will destroy them and their world? Or does he curse them?
I don't know Hebrew, so I can't say this with any great authority, but I find the wording of the curses in Gen 3 very interesting. They read not as God listing the natural effects of sin, but as God listing his punishment for sin. God says "I will put", and "I will greatly increase", as if he were a judge handing down a sentence. He also banishes Adam and Eve from the garden. So it seems to me if we're going to take a Biblical view of the beginning of suffering, we ought not to say that suffering is a result of sin, but that suffering is God's punishment for sin. At least, some suffering is. I don't think instances of pain resulting from cruel or selfish human acts can be traced back to these divine curses (unless our sinful nature itself is a curse from God), but at the very least, toil and the pain of childbirth can be.
Which raises an interesting question about the exact relationship between the fall and suffering. Just how did the first sin make such a mess of the world that it even brought into existence diseases, natural disasters, and carnivores? I can't say this for certain, but such things (if indeed they can be associated with the fall) would seem to arise not as natural results of sin, but as the punishment of God on all of creation for human sins. God cursed the ground to make farming toilsome; it seems that he also cursed the water and the air to create tornados and tsunamis. God created thorns as punishment; it seems that he also created deadly viruses. God put enmity between humans and snakes; it seems that he also put enmity between wolves and lambs. Or am I wrong?
This is not to say that God is to blame for the fallen nature of the world, only that he seems to have caused it to fall as punishment for man's sin. I don't understand why he would do that, but it does seem consistent with other things God has done, such as commanding the Israelites to slaughter enemy tribes' livestock, in addition to all human members. Another example of this sort of blanket punishment would be sending a flood to destroy all life on earth. If God really wanted to wipe out every man, woman and child in the world (save for one family) because of their great sin, there are numerous ways this could have been done - plague, war, fire from heaven, or simply striking them all dead. But he chose to flood the earth, drowning not only every human, but every animal as well (again, except for 2-6 of every kind). Why?
There seems to be something inconsistent, to me, about the Biblical God's attitude towards animals. On one hand, scripture takes the position that a perfect world would not include violent death for any creatures. On the other hand, animals are routinely caught in the crossfire of God's punishment of humanity. I can't understand this.
I'm afraid I've stumbled back upon an old problem of mine: the Biblical portrayal of God's judgment, which is radically out of sync with my own intuitive understanding of justice. In the Bible nations are judged and destroyed as a whole, children are punished for their ancestor's sins, and (based on the above) animals are cursed for the disobedience of humans. Of course, in everyday life the consequences of misdeeds are commonly suffered by those who did not perpetrate them - children, families, nations, and animals. This is both a natural part of our world and a significant aspect of the problem of pain. Although we see it every day, we sense that something is wrong - very wrong - about innocents suffering as a result of other's sins. The Bible (at the least, this portion of the Bible) does not explain how God could allow undeserved suffering. On the contrary, it makes God a perpetrator of such suffering.
I want to be clear: I'm not trying to find fault with the Biblical God or tell him that he should to have acted differently. What I'm saying is that his actions, as I understand them, make no sense to me. I recognize that this is not a particularly persuasive argument against the existence of the Biblical God. Please understand, it's not intended to be. What I'm saying is that any explanation for the existence of suffering in God's creation that requires a literal interpretation of the Bible is extremely unsatisfactory to me. Unless my readers wish to change my mind, I will move on to other possible explanations for the existence of suffering.
[+/-] The Bible on Pain |
[+/-] Not Especially About Pain |
I recently came across this post in draft form. I wrote it almost exactly one year ago, and I don't know why I never published it. I like it, and I think it relates to some of my more recent thoughts. Some parts of what I've written here have changed in the past year (for example, I'm not nearly so bitter with God, and it turns out my hair does look good long) and other parts have stayed the same. I still think it's interesting, but then, I'm probably more interested in my own out-of-date thoughts than anyone else. My next post about pain is nearing completion, but in the mean time, this is me a year ago:
It's Christmas time, I'm off school, and come to think of it, today's my birthday. But none of this is particularly exciting right now. The world is cold and grey. I don't know what I believe, but I know it's not what I want to believe. I'm confused, and I know I'm not smart enough or diligent enough for this task. God seems not to be on side, and that doesn't help. I feel at peace about the process I've engaged myself in - the process of questioning and fighting through my faith. I know this is what I should be doing, but I also know that I cannot do it well. I know that I'm too emotional, too lazy, too tired and skeptical and too human to find God or truth. So the problem is not that what I'm doing is wrong, it's that I am doing it poorly, and I cannot do it better. I've been dwelling a lot on hell, and I don't know how much of what I've written on this will ever be published here, but it's fairly discouraging.
What I've read in the past 24 hours: part of an old book about why the KJV is the only Bible translation you should read, and parts of another book about why the Charismatic movement is bad and miracles ceased after the NT was written. Neither seemed particularly well thought through or honest.
Random stuff: I'm thinking about people I know, and their various viewpoints. I talked to a girl the other day who is no longer a Christian, and who says that rejecting Christianity was the most wonderful, uplifting experience of her life. I talked with my relatives about Christianity and the Bible, which they hold to be the inspired word of God. I talked to various people about hell, and how to reconcile the doctrine of hell with my beliefs about God's goodness. I talked to friends who are struggling with the church, friends who are walking away from the church, and friends who embody the church. I talked with a few people about how the direction I'm headed will cause me to be more and more detached from the church, simply because I will be less and less able to volunteer in Christian ministry. I was kissed twice this week: once by my grandma, who's in the hospital, and once by a mentally ill homeless man. It's 5:00 right now, and it's cold and dark out. I have a party to go to tonight. I generally hate parties, but I was at a good one the other day. People are dying in the world today. I'm feeling melancholic, and I'm not wearing socks. It looks like Hotel Rwanda may not be playing in Edmonton. Has anyone talked with God lately? How is he doing? I hear he might be in Africa. I don't think I really like him. He's done a lot of bad stuff in the past, and he doesn't seem to be sorry for it. He's pretty icy, hard to get close too. I think I may resent the fact that he's the center of my life. Everything I think about and do revolves around him, and he knows it. I wish I could go a day without thinking about God, just living, loving, doing stuff, and not bothering about prayer or ethics or the problems in Jude. I wish I could just be myself and sort of have my own ideas about God and religion that don't come to the surface unless someone asks me about them. And then I could think for a bit and explain some of how I feel about God and stuff, and we could chat about it or whatever, but it wouldn't be me, you know? It wouldn't be what I'm all about.
I think one of the big problems with me is that I'm afraid of hell. I guess most people are, but it's so stupid. Just do your best - that's all you can do. And maybe someday when you're dead God will say "sorry, you thought the wrong stuff, so damn you", or maybe he won't. He chose not to make this straight-forward. That was his choice, not mine. I can't get myself all bent out of shape about something I really have no control over. If I wasn't afraid of hell, I think I could do a lot of things with my mind.
One thing I really value in my friends is their differences. I have friends that are a lot like me, and others that are so different. I grow when I interact with them, because they stop my thoughts from becoming inbred and redundant. But I wish I had more diversity in my friends. I don't make friends easily, is the problem, but if I had my choice I'd have Mormon and Jewish and Muslim and Catholic and atheist friends, and gays and feminists and humanists. I'd have some friends that were really smart, but others that weren't. Some of my friends would be open and tolerant and great to talk to, but others would be closed-minded and a little irritating. Some of my friends would like to go to coffee shops, and I'd go with them and talk about global responsibility and philosophy and love. As long as I'm wishing, I'd also like the taste of coffee and Chinese food. My hair would look good long, and I'd be able to play the guitar. I'd probably have a girlfriend.
(That was a segway.) I found myself wishing I had a girlfriend the other day. Not in a "oh man, I need get a girlfriend soon" way, but in a kind of whimsical, "some day it would be cool" way. My girlfriend would be smart and honest, and I'd think she was very pretty, though she wouldn't believe me, because girls are weird like that. She'd be someone who I could be very, very real with. She'd know me better than anyone else; she'd be like the second me. She wouldn't know me perfectly, because that's impossible, but she'd know me about as well as I know me, and she'd have a different view of me, and I'd come to her to try to find out who I am. She'd play the piano, I guess. Or the guitar, but I'm already pretending I play the guitar. I don't care, it could be the other way around, or maybe one of us plays the violin or something. But it couldn't be a wind instrument, because you have to be able to sing while you play. I would lie on my bed reading poetry by candle light, and she would come over without calling first and practice her violin, playing sad songs and singing in French, and I'd pretend to keep reading, but I'd just listen to her voice and her violin making beautiful sounds I didn't understand, and she'd know I was listening more than reading because I'd start to cry. I just wish I had a #1, you know? A best, best friend, but more than that.
I think the god-shaped hole is a myth. I think we have a something-shaped hole, but no one really knows what the shape is exactly. I doubt anyone's ever done a good job of filling this hole with God. Not that God couldn't fill it, maybe, but he doesn't. He just sits up there and does whatever he does (probably holds the world together or something) and he's not that interested in filling your hole.
6 comments:
I just had a couple comments: # 1 is that, IMO, worrying about Hell is not a "silly" thing. It is, in fact, a very important thing. I don't pretend to be an expert on hell, but most views (Christian and otherwise) that believe in hell would agree that it a) sucks a lot and b) is hard, if not impossible, to escape once you enter. If a and b are true, then it is definitely in our best interests to do whatever it takes to stay out of hell, rather than wondering if said activities seem fair to us. (Just like we would do whatever someone said if they had a gun to our head.) Granted, this doesnt' pain a very appealing picture of God.
Also, it' very arrogant to say (and you may agree with me by now) that NO ONE has ever filled their "God-shaped" hole. I know lots if Christians that feel very satisfied by God. I know YOU don't, but unless you think all those other Christians are lying you may be over-generalizing.
I also agree that it was very arrogant (or at least presumptuous) of me to generalize that God does not fill the "God-shaped hole" for anyone. I made the common mistake of assuming that everyone's experiences were the same as my own. Which, ironically, is the very mistake I find so irritating in many Christians, who believe that since God is satisfying to them, He must also be satisfying to me, and who therefore conclude that my struggles with the Christian God are entirely my own fault.
However, I think there is a statement in there which I still believe, when excavated from copious amounts of overstatement. I would now phrase it something like this: "While many people seem to do a very good job of filling their hole with God, for many others God seems not to be the answer."
[+/-] The Problem |
The problem of pain is a simple one. We know it intuitively. In straight-forward terms it is the question of how terrible suffering can exist if there is a loving God. The more philosophical-sounding way of stating it is this:
1. God is omniscient (knows everything)
2. God is omnipotent (can do anything)
3. God is omnibenevolent (is completely loving)
4. There is gratuitous suffering (suffering without any good reason)
All of the above cannot possibly be true. If people and animals suffer without any good reason, then either God does not know about it, or he is powerless to stop it, or he does not love us, or he does not exist. Those are the only options. (It is taken for granted that a being who loves another will not wish his/her beloved to endure gratuitous suffering.)
Clearly, this presents a huge problem for people who believe in God. No one can deny that there is a lot of suffering in the world. No one can deny that this suffering often appears to have no positive effect, or at least, to have far more negative effects than positive. So what do you do? If you're dead set on believing in God (or if you find the arguments for God's existence so convincing that they overwhelm any counterarguments) you basically have two options. You can say that all suffering, no matter how terrible and senseless it may appear, has a sufficient purpose, or you can say that God is not aware of this suffering, or can do nothing to prevent it, or simply doesn't care.
The first option is certainly more appealing, if you're fond of the omni-everything concept of God. Some have tried to explain how all pain has a purpose, or at least, how it is conceivable that all pain may have a purpose. Failing that, most theists will want to put some limit on God's omnipotence by explaining how God cannot break certain laws (for example, human free will) and is thus powerless to prevent suffering. Few will wish to say that God is not aware of our suffering, because this makes him very weak and uninvolved. A few might challenge God's omnibenevolence, saying that perhaps God is so repulsed by our sinfulness that he pours out his well-deserved wrath upon us in the form of suffering. And if all of this fails, there is always Atheism. Also, it should be noted that this problem can be solved by positing two or more Gods, one of whom is malevolent or sadistic.
One final response is worth mentioning. Many people (in fact, I think the majority) say they simply are not capable of finding the solution to this problem, but they cope better with suffering by believing in a loving God, and they will therefore choose to have faith that the existence of a loving God is not inconsistent with the immense suffering, though they cannot imagine how. This is certainly a respectable position. Indeed, if we conclude that we are unfit (because of lack of evidence or insufficient intelligence) to render a verdict on this matter, it may be the most responsible position. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
This post is intended merely to introduce the problem and list the main types of responses to it. I intend to expand on and critique most or all of these responses in subsequent posts. I appreciate the reading suggestions my readers have offered, but I doubt I'll have time to read many of them. However, I believe that I'm familiar with most of the arguments presented in these books, though perhaps not in exactly the same form, and I fully intend to address each of them. I trust that my readers will alert me if they feel I have overlooked, misrepresented, or too quickly dismissed an important position.
24 comments:
I have two points I would like to raise, one important, and the other about logic.
First, is the God of the Bible the God you are discussing in your preamble? Does the God of the Bible know everything? Is the God of the Bible all-powerful? Is the God of the Bible omnibenevolent? (And what does that even mean?) I don't think you want to make the claim that the Omni-God of your preamble is the same as the God of the Bible... (you are, after all, a theographer) but if you are not making that claim, why am I interested? Why would I care if a God I don't believe in doesn't exist?
I feel a little guilty for raising my second point, but if you will permit me a brief moment to pontificate about logic...
Intuitively, you are right: at least one of the premises on your list has to be false. Many contemporary logicians, however, argue for "paraconsistent logics" that allow (in one way or another) for contradictions to exist within a given set. As a result, even the derivation of a paradox from an abstract theory does not prove that the theory is inadequate.
I'll tell you the truth: I am in way over my head at this point. I'm not qualified to discuss paraconsistent logic in any meaningful way. In sum, an appeal to paraconsistent logic is a 'wink wink, nudge nudge' solution -- it doesn't add anything to the discussion at all. But it does mean that you can't pretend that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God is logically irreconcilable with gratuitous suffering. That is not accurate. Such a God and gratuitous suffering are irreconcilable according to classical logic, but classical logic is not the only game in town.
I had a hunch my degree in philosophy might come in handy.
~jonas
I guess I never said this explicitly, but my strategy is this: I've started with the premise that there is suffering in creation, and will attempt to find a concept of God (and the world, etc.) that is consistent with this. Clearly, the omni-God is not. (According to any sort of logic that makes a shred of sense to me.) So I move on to other Gods.
This is the first I've heard of paraconsistent logic. It sounds like bullshit to me, but doubtless this is because it's all just way over my puny mortal head. But I'm reminded that what I'm really doing here is looking for someting I can believe, not something that everyone must believe.
But I'm not really interested in paraconsistent logics. Here is a question on which the current "logical" process pivots: Is there gratuitous suffering?
The way you are proceeding is putting the burden of proof on those who want to suggest that there is a purpose to all suffering, and if they want to conclusively prove the possibility of God existing, then that is their burden.
However, if you want proof of the IMPOSSIBILITY of the omni-god existing, then the mere lack of proof for the purpose of suffering is not enough. You have to prove that there is gratuitous suffering; you have to show that there is suffering for which there can be no good purpose.
Oh Jacob, Jonas, this could be fun! Where is everyone else? We aren't too boring are we?
But if God is truely omnipotent, he should be able to accomplish anything he wants through a huge variety of means, or even directly, mearly by willing it. So any arguement that makes suffering the means to something else should dissolve. The only thing you could argue to maintain consistency is that suffering is an intrinsic good. Which seems absurd.
Thus I think we can say that the omni-god, while not strictly impossible, defies all (classical) logic. Which is good enough for me.
I guess you can take whichever one you want, but the first seems kind of stupid if you want to show whether a certain kind of God exists using logic. If you want to subject the existence of God to logic, then you must be assuming that his existence is somehow subsumed under logical rules, that he is subject to logical laws or that his/her being is mutually constituted and consistent with laws of logic.
So, if omnipotence means, "can do anything that is logically possible" then you don't know whether at least the possibility of suffering (that is a little hint about where I am coming from) might be a necessary for accomplishing the greatest good.
This is not bullshit Jacob. Can God exist and not exist? Can he make a stone so big he can't lift it? Or mountains without peaks and valleys? The "omni" god is logically inconsistent if in your definition of omnipotent means a-logical.
If you want your "logical" analysis about God to mean anything then the answer to those questions should be no, and you might have to really think about the logical consequences that even God's actions must have.
Think about it.
For example, why not create a world in which there are no carnivors? Or no diseases? Or just no HIV? Or in which Hitler died before rising to power? All of these things would seem to be possible for an even moderately powerful God. Granted, there are likely to be unforseen consequences to each of these actions. (Unforseen for an un-omniscient being such as myself.) But surely an omnipotent God could figure out something better than what we have now.
I guess the simple way of saying it is that if the omni-god exists, it seems to me that we must live in the best of all possible worlds. And I find that extremely difficult to believe.
But you're right that I know nothing about the metaphysical relationship between suffering and hidden goods. Perhaps all of this is necessary. But I can't imagine why.
I'd like to hear where you're coming from, wrt the possibility of suffering. I'm actually writing a final on this very topic at 9 tomorrow.
I believe free will, and the fact of multiple beings existing is a very significant situation. God's omnipotence is "limited" in so far as it is impossible for God to be have control over everything and for beings other than him to exist. God chose the existence of other beings over his own omnipotence.
With all the criticisms of the church's facist dogmatism you would think they would take a lesson from "their" god.
I would also suggest that the view of suffering as an inherent evil is also an assumption. One of the good papers I read in my philosophy of Religion class, and was in my testbook which it is too bad you don't have time to read, presented God as the father/teacher figure.
While again I do not propose to explain all suffering under this heading, but my empirical study has shown that some suffering has proved to strengthen and shape men and women into incredible people.
If I lost my leg, would it necessarily be Evil? Or could it make me into a "better" person (someone who loves)? Or if I lost my mother could I find myself weakened in such a way so as to help me realize the beauty and value of people? I mean I don't know, but it could be.
That is one difficulty about this problem, one fact of pain is that you can never know someone elses pain, it is a subjective reality. This means that we can never speak with certainty to anothers suffering so I cannot suppose to explain the "purpose" or "value" of their suffering.
I am only saying that there might be one. There might.
Also, Jacob, if you honestly think about it, suffering is in human nature. My thought on this is that no matter how good life is for somone, they continue to have suffering. NO ONE has ever lived a life complete without suffering. Ghandi suffered, Jesus suffered, Bhuda (sp?) suffered, your next door neighbor has suffered from something. And no matter how good you have it, you still have suffering at some point in you life. Utterly poor people suffer, just as the filthy rich suffer. And I don't believe God will do anything about it because of the reason above and because a good part of suffering is caused by humans, and God would have to mess with free will to fix that. Im starting to ramble so im gonna stop, but im interested to see how you pick this apart, cause you always seem to. :)
All people suffer sometimes, in various ways and to various degrees, though some people suffer a lot more than others. It's a matter of debate whether a perfect world (think Eden or Heaven) would contain suffering, and to what degree, but I think we can all agree that some suffering gives every appearance of being unnecessary or gratuitous. There are a lot of partial explanations for suffering, such as human free will (if you believe that having unbridled free will is worth the immense suffering it causes). And there's a lot of suffering that can easily be explained. But then there's other suffering that's far more difficult to account for, and this suffering is the real problem.
So there, did I pick it apart to your satisfaction? :)
God does not desire merely sheep, he desires mature, strong, powerful people of love. And so the sheep need to not merely be kept from moving away, but actually taken somewhere, taken along a path from sheepness to divinity.
This means that maybe the sheepdog actually has to nip at our heals to get us moving.
I think that the majority of suffering is as a result of human free will, and I think that it might be an interesting discussion about whether free will is worth the suffering, and what it a "bridaled" free will might look like, though again, the discussion loses it deductive quality, which I know is less satisfying.
Again, another interesting thing to think about, and that I think might be related to what Andrew was saying about suffering being inherent in human life, is how much our own will affects our own suffering, and how our attitude towards it changes the nature of suffering.
People with seemingly great lives can bitch more then those who deal with apparent, and apparently difficult problems. Some who suffer the most can call it a blessing, and some can be destroyed by it. What do we say about our own role in the essence of suffering?
I don't know if I should do some of my own analysis, or leave it here for now. I guess it's Jacob's blog. Back to you Duder
I'll be home for Christmas soon, let's hang out.
I don't have the interweb at home, so I don't have the ability to just post like a mad banshee at any time of the day or night. I am not suggesting that you are a mad banshee. I am suggesting that you are LIKE a mad banshee. 'S different.
I was a little bit disappointed with your reply to my careful (and self-deprecating) post about paraconsistent logic. I understand that you have a lot of people to satisfy, but you should realize that I am most important, most important of all. You’ll find no more evidence of false modesty here.
Ironically, you say that paraconsistent logic is a) bullshit and b) something that you don’t really understand. It makes me angry that you would say this. Here’s what you should do: read about paraconsistent logic, and then tell me if you still think it is bullshit. Despite being utterly insane, paraconsistent logic is pretty straightforward stuff, really. Let’s take a Cook’s tour…
First, the reason that inconsistency is so bad is that, according to classical logic, a contradiction implies anything.
1. A ∧ ~A (premise)
2. A (If A and ~A are both true, then A is true)
3. A ∨ P (If A is true, then at least one of A or P is true)
4. ~A (If A and ~A are both true, then ~A is true)
∴ P (If at least one of A or P is true, and it isn’t A, then P is true)
This is called ex falso quodlibet. This is the reason that a contradiction is so venomous – it implies that anything whatever is true, and that is a disaster. If a contradiction is true, then any proposition is also true.
Here’s where things start to shake down. The Beggarman is right: physics is pretty complicated. In fact, it is so complicated that we are often faced with non-trivial and inconsistent theories. The famous pursuit of a unified field theory is an effort to correct the major flaw in modern physics – specifically; relativity and quantum mechanics should work in agreement to model the Big Bang. In short, they don’t. The math breaks down. Relativity doesn’t work with subatomic particles, or rather; subatomic particles don’t follow the rules prescribed by relativistic physics. However, relativity is integral to the formation of Quantum Mechanics, and modern physicists use relativity theory to model the macro-world, and Q.M. to model subatomic stuff. That means every physicist since Heisenberg has held an inconsistent set of beliefs at the very heart of what they believe, and yet somehow they avoid the mistake of inferring anything whatever about the behaviour of electrons. And that’s supposed to be the point. Ex falso quodlibet – from a contradiction, everything. If we are able to hold a contradiction, then what is the point of freaking out over the ‘fact’ (and this fact is much less certain than the fact of the inconsistency between relativity and Q.M.) that God and evil co-exist? If it is true that theists are inconsistent in their beliefs, at least they are in good company. Essentially, we’re in the same boat with everybody else.
And so here’s the point: if you a) prove that the God of the Bible is the God of the Omnis and b) prove that there is gratuitous suffering, then you have a contradiction. But what does a contradiction show? Does that matter? It doesn’t seem to matter to modern physicists, why should it matter to theologians? You are telling me that you want a God that you can believe in, but unless I am catastrophically misled, you already hold a belief set riddled, absolutely riddled with inconsistency. So why would you get rid of God on the basis of one little contradiction? It’s not for intellectual honesty: if it were, you would read something about paraconsistent logic. It must be something else.
You said that you were looking for a concept of God that was consistent with suffering in the world. There are an infinite number of gods that could satisfy this requirement. In fact, you have only proved that one God is impossible, and that only if there is gratuitous suffering, which will not be an easy thing to prove. And my question remains: why are you so fired up about consistency? Sure, in an ideal world, we would have consistent belief-sets, but we are not living in an ideal world. And there are other epistemic virtues… why are you so fixated on consistency? Tell me whatever you want, but don’t tell it is because of logic.
jonas
Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes. ~ Walt Whitman
ps – In answer to your question, Beggar, I reluctantly admit to being (kind of) boring…
As I said above, It's true that some suffering produces beneficial effects, and thus it is possible that God uses suffering to "get us moving" (for example in the case of Jonah or numerous other Bible stories) but I don't think this explains why suffering must exist in the first place (why not just say "hey Jacob, get moving") or why it happens to people who have done no wrong.
It is probably true that a large amount - if not the majority - of suffering is to some degree dependent on human free will. And to the extent that it is applicable, I personally find the free will arguement to be very convincing. But it is far from sufficient to account for all suffering.
It is also true that our attitudes towards hardships greatly effect our degree of suffering, and to the extent that we control our attitudes and our attitudes control our suffering, we are capable of overcoming suffering, which may well be beneficial.
But again, I think this does not apply to the worst and most troublesome forms of suffering, such as animal suffering, natural disasters and insanity, to name a few.
I'm very much up for hanging out. After Friday.
I most emphatically did not say that paraconsistent logic is both bullshit and something that I don’t understand. (You would be right to be angry with me if I had.) What I said was that it sounded like bullshit to me, but that this is undoubtably because it's over my head. (It would have been more accurate to say "because I have heard virtually nothing about it, although even if I did, I suspect it would be over my head.") I appreciate your effort to lessen my ignorence.
I am aware of the existence of apparent contradictions in physics (though I don't know much about relativity or QM themselves). To my high school science-educated mind, this would seem to suggest that one or both of the inconsistent theories are wrong or incomplete, not that the two inconsistent theories are both correct. Both theories may be simultaniously be held to be useful (that is, to have predictive value) at the same time, but both cannot be held to be true, according to my understanding of logic.
I see that it is possible to use contradictiory theories without EFQing (if you will) to any and every conclusion. Doubtless, it is also possible to genuinely and consciously believe a contradiction without believing anything else you want, simply by choosing not to believe these further contardictions. But the problem I see is that if you allow the possibility of A & ~A being true, then presumably you must also allow the possibility of B & ~B. If this is the case, it seems to me that you'd have a hell of a time knowing anything, since most logical conclusions rest on the exposure of contradictions, which I think is called reductio ad absurdum. So the greatest problem that I have with holding a contradiction to be true is that it sets a precedent for any other contradiction. Which would put us in the bad company of lunatics, in addition to our good company.
Intellectual honesty, based on my understanding of logic (which at present does not include paraconsistent logic) requires that I avoid inconsistency wherever possible, and where holding inconsistent theories is necessary for pracitical purposes, that I understand that in reality, at most one of these theories is correct. I do not claim to have achieved ful consistency in my beliefs, but I do try to address and overcome inconsistencies when they come to my attention.
I am fully aware that I have only proved one God to be impossible (and that only if there is gratuitious suffering). As I said in my previous post, "Next Up", I intend to write several posts on the problem of pain, of which this is only the first. My subsequent posts will address other theodicies and other concepts of God, though I may not get to all of the infinite possibilities.
As I think (and hope) I have stated, my goal in this endeavor is not to discover the unassailable truth about the existence and attributes of God. My goal is simply to find a set of beliefs about God that seem consistent (there's that word again) and make sense to me. I am not so naive that I hope to find a position impervious to all doubt and disagreement. I'm just looking for one with which I can be intellectually comfortable.
Why am I so fixated on consistency? Nobody's ever asked me that before. Consistency seems like a big deal to me. It seems to me (as one who still does not understand/accept paraconsistent logic) that to blithely accept contradictions would be insane, or at best, intellectually dishonest. Do you disagree?
(So yes, I am telling you it's because of logic. I don't understand why you find this unbelievable.)
Human examples of gratuitous suffering tend to be less clean-cut, because any occurence in the human world tends to be influenced by human actions, and have many possible effects that are difficult to see. (For this reason, it is not possible to say difinitively that a child dying of cancer is an instance of gratuitious suffering, because so many possible goods could come out of it, in addition to much suffering.) But I think there are examples of human suffering so great that we cannot imagine the positive effects that might warrant them. (Though some may disagree.) A few examples might be AIDS and other such pandemics, various genocides, famines, insanity, great natural disasters, and excruciating diseases that effect small children, such as epidermolysis bullosa. It is very difficult to imagine a reason for a powerful and loving God to allow these sorts of evil to exist. (Though even if we can think of no possible reason to tolerate or inflict these evils, we cannot say with certainty that an omniscient God could not have one.)
Many biologists believe that the attack of a large predator (such as a lion) actually causes a state of shock in it's victim, so that little pain is actually felt. I have read many stories of people attacked by lions, bears sharks etc and many of them say more or less the same thing- "It was tearing me apart and I never felt any pain."
This doesn't much prove anything about the problem of pain, or suffering, or anything for that matter (unless you get attacked by a lion, I suppose). It's just a cool idea.
The Bible says people rule over animals, or something like that, but not in the sense that we can do whatever we wish to them. Intuitively and Biblically it seems that torture/cruelty towards animals is wrong. And if this is the case, it seems logical that any animal suffering is wrong, or undesirable, in the same sense that human suffering is wrong. But I will address the subject of animal suffering further in my next post.
The theory that being eaten tends to induce a state of shock in animals (previous comment) is news to me. Although if this does not occur universally, or in the case of other pain-inducing events, I don't think it could solve this problem.
Jacob, you write as though you serve (supposedly) a God who lives on the same level as you. You write as if you are worthy. You write as if there is no such thing as the grace of God. Man, we should be dead because of our lifestyles! But leave it to man to find something to complain about.
That's all I have to say. Focus on the grace of God - not your lack of understanding. Satisfaction will never be met. Christ has loved you with an everlasting love. Please don't forget that.
I argue from the same point here. If suffering is *ours* meaning that it is a result of our own doing then why is God to blame? Why does his existance or nature hinge on my lack of suffering? An example. If my son or daughter chooses to self amputate a limb what can I do? If I had the power to re-attach the limb I would be interfering with her free-will. If I take the pain away I would be negating her power to choose. If I aleviated the suffering I would be removing the consequence of action.
If I say that man has free will then God must not interfere with this free will or else it is no longer free. This would also mean that, if suffering is an effect of our own cause then God is being just in His decision to stay out of it.
In many ways it is the only right thing to do.
Post a Comment
4 comments:
So what is next on the agenda? I am liking it so far...
However, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with thinking about it and trying to find a better answer. In other words, that's not meant to deter you from continuing on this line of posts, because I am really enjoying your thoughts (long hair still working out well?).
Long hair can be a nusiance, especially when showering or playing soccer. But I soldier on.
Post a Comment